Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative diseases

A forum for the discussion of antibiotics as a potential therapy for MS

Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative diseases

Postby NZer1 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:25 pm

The Australians are leading the way again;

For those of us with MS this video will start to connect the dots or fit the missing pieces of the infamous Puzzle.
Excellent presentation, hope it goes 'viral' real quick
Thank you to https://www.facebook.com/beyondthebandaid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpvLjJ4O ... e=youtu.be

*Edited, the site is having difficulties again with its method of shortening url's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpvLjJ4O ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by NZer1 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Anecdote » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:35 am

Nigel, not only des this link not exist but David hasn't heard from you or from Thibault recently. He did get an email from the New Zealand MS Society, if that is what you meant.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby NZer1 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:59 am

Sarah, I have edited the link.

Can you pm me an email address please, I have tried several for him and they either bounce or appear to go through, I never know what is happening and Paul has been cc-ed and wonders the same.

How long ago was the NZ MS Society contact Sarah?

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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Anecdote » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:20 pm

I'll send you a PM to say what I think is your problem.

Yes, the link works fine now!

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Lance1564 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:58 pm

Hey Sarah-

Just got my chlamydia serology back from Mayo Clinic today. Everything came back negative within their reference ranges. So where should I go from here? Is it a personal decision at this point? Stratton wanted me to get the titers from the lab rather than the results they sent back stating that each test was simply less than the reference titers. Any suggestions?
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Anecdote » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:22 am

Lance, I would do as Stratton suggests. My test would have been classed as negative except that David got in touch with our laboratory but I started reacting straight away. Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby NZer1 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:39 pm

A post from my site to help other with CPn treating;
I have been reading through a site that achieved my attention and have ironically come across something very relative to me and where my health is heading on the Protocol.
I am guessing that Paul Thibault is getting feedback from patients about the 'Herx' phenomonon and is looking for solutions.
Where to from here?
https://www.facebook.com/doctordavidjernigan
DrDavid Jernigan
10 February via Mobile
Health tip of the day: I am the first doctor to take a stand against using Herxheimer reactions as guide and indication of "good" treatment.
When a doctor uses a natural or pharmaceutical antibiotic to kill some Lyme spirochetes in a person, there is often a resultant Jarisch- Herxheimer reaction (Herx) -- a worsening of the patient’s symptoms in response to the increased release of bacterial die-off toxins. The toxins are deposited into the bloodstream and are circulated throughout the body.
These toxins damage tissues in the body and are one of the primary reasons that symptoms can persist even after the actual Bb infection is gone; the toxin-damage can remain as an irritant in the tissues for years.
In truth, a severe Herxheimer reaction is a sign of poor elimination pathway drainage, poor organ and tissue support, and a poor treatment philosophy by your doctor!
The body of most chronic Lyme sufferers is a toxic dump to start with; if the doctor does not get the pathways of elimination open and working, the body gets even more toxic when the bacteria begin to die and their toxins release.
The person with Lyme Disease has already suffered enough and does not need to go through a Herx just to prove they have Lyme Disease!
In my opinion, it is unnecessary and barbaric for a doctor to want and expect their patients to feel worse for years as an indication of good treatment.
Just say NO to herx's!
When you are looking for an "LLMD," your first question to the doctor should be, "How will you know the treatment is working?" If they say, "I will know because you will start feeling worse, due to a Herx reaction," I would suggest you find a new doctor.
Insist on a better treatment plan!
Reply comment, one of many;
Susan Ortolano Doreen S- herxing is when we have some kind of treatment that causes a temporary increase in symptoms due to the 'die off' of the bacteria and the toxins that go with them. It is supposed to be 'temporary' and many docs, including some LLMDs say its a sign that treatment is working. As Dr. Jernigan effectively explains in his post, herxing isnt necessarily a sign that treatment is working, but a sign that the body has poor elimiation pathways as well as poor organ and issue support, meaning that the body is off balance, isnt moving the toxins out properly and is recirculating them back into the body, which can cause some damage. This damage can remain even when the intitial infection is gone. In my experience, herxing got so bad for me, I could barely move, my body swelled up so badly, and had burnng pain from head to toe. It was a nightmare. I previously had been doing better, but thought i would try some new abx, and some untested homeopathic treatment by docs who didnt know what they were doing. Although my healing process has been slower than I'd like it to be, Dr. jernigan and Dr. Jowdy, through their bio resonance scnning process were able to test my body for what it needed and combine homeopathic and herbal remedies that I previously would never in a million years though i could tolerate, given my past experience. At Hansa, they are treating and balancing the whole body, not just trying to kill the infections. Its been a longer process for me than I would want of course, and we are still working on things, but its been getting better. I wouldnt dream of going back to the "kill the bacteria and herx" way of healing. Meanwhile, bac here at home, Im doing some adjunct therapies to help things along, and looking forward to my next trip to Hansa in the spring.
11 February at 12:32
A question and reply session on the subject and others;
Nigel Wadham DrDavid Jernigan
Hi Dr D, have there been any studies on Lyme or CPn bacteria in a before and after chronic infection sense to confirm if the bacteria/spirochetes are biologically the same in people who are 'resistant to infection' and people who have chronic infections?
I am thinking because CPn bacteria (stealth bacteria) for instance have the ability to adapt DNA, go dormant if there is threats eg ABx, infect I...See More
Like ·
Nigel Wadham The 30% outcomes in CCSVI make me wonder if this is also an outcome where the environment has been made uninhabitable by better blood flow as well as enabling repair of vein walls/BBB. This improvement could then correspond with findings that the valve...See More
Hello Nigel,
I am unaware of any such studies.
Dr. Jernigan
Today
09:15
Nigel Wadham
Thanks, is this something that you believe to be worthy of investigation?
I get the feeling after reading other outcomes from people such as Terry Wahls, George Jelinek, and Stephen Buhner that the issues found that correct a problem are different to the 'cause' of the problem.
To word that another way it appears a diet lacking anti-microbial and anti-bacterial herbs throughout life is the issue, the outcome is an environment that for example bacteria can thrive and adapt themselves to easily. The process of correcting the issue or health outcome will often need be very broad in method to 're-boot' many areas of a synergenic health system.
The ability of bacteria to diversify to the environment and avoid threats such as mono-ABx treatments shows that we will have huge difficulty finding the beginning of issues. A lifetime of diets without herbal anti-microbials and anti-bacterials is going to be a mine field to traverse and correct to wellness.
Is this how you see the situation?
09:20
Nigel Wadham
Abstract
The model of biofilm infection was first proposed over a decade ago. Recent scientific advances have added much to our understanding of biofilms, usually polymicrobial communities, which are commonly associated with chronic infection. Metagenomics has demonstrated that bacteria pursuing a biofilm strategy possess many mechanisms for encouraging diversity. By including multiple bacterial and/or fungal species in a single community, biofilms obtain numerous advantages, such as passive resistance, metabolic cooperation, byproduct influence, quorum sensing systems, an enlarged gene pool with more efficient DNA sharing, and many other synergies, which give them a competitive advantage. Routine clinical cultures are ill-suited for evaluating polymicrobial infections. DNA methods utilizing PCR methods, PCR/mass spectroscopy and sequencing have demonstrated their ability to identify microorganisms and quantitate their contribution to biofilms in clinical infections. A more robust model of biofilm infection along with more accurate diagnosis is rapidly translating into improved clinical outcomes.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 6/abstract
Today
17:27
Nigel Wadham
Can you briefly explain your comment about Herxheimer type reactions not being necessary or a good sign please.
I am guessing that intracellular diseases such as CPn treatment are a different re-balancing process than Lyme treatment and that co-infections of Lyme and CPn would have to have a herxheimer reaction.
I cannot see how intracellular bacteria can be removed without endo-toxins being part of the process when a person has a chronic active infection in diseases such as MS.
Look forward to your reply, thanks,
Nigel
17:54
DrDavid Jernigan
Please see my FB posts on this topic. Also google Dr. David A. Jernigan Toxins, Herx and such. Thanks
18:42
Nigel Wadham
I had read your page and not found answers to my question that is why I took the time to ask you directly David.
Can you please give me a direct answer, thanks, Nigel
19:06
DrDavid Jernigan
Okay Nigel direct or not, your question cannot be DIRECTLY answered. I will not, and cannot answer your question to your satisfaction as no one has worked out the exact biochemical processes.
19:06
Nigel Wadham
It appears you are saying if you make the environment for the bacteria inhospitable they will depart.
My mind asks what about intra-cellular bacteria who go into hibernation and remain in you cells? When intra-cellular cells'depart' your system are they alive or dead and there for endo-toxin is unavoidable?
19:08
DrDavid Jernigan
I am sorry but I don't have time to discuss the intricacies of this topic. I appreciate you wanting to know. If you read my book you will know what I know...which is little enough.
19:15
Nigel Wadham
Thanks I have read many impressions of what is happening and find Stephen Buhners version understandable. I find it hard to see why you put the statement about Herx being unnecessary or a poor outcome in writing if there is no answer to questions like mine. I for one are on the receiving end of the reaction and I am looking for knowledge and support to wellness, which I do talk about.
I also understand there are things we can't explain but find that work, this is why I asked for help to begin a process of finding help with experienced practitioners.
One more question why do you remove some posts and not others on your FB page?
Thanks Nigel
In regard to your book I did find an out let that sells the ebook version as Amazon only advertise the paper print.
19:31
DrDavid Jernigan
If you can neutralize the toxins they cease to be toxins and they have no toxic effect.
I regulate what I want on my page to control content and leave the primary focus for the Health Tips, which often get buried. It is not really a forum...it is my fb page. No offense.
I do take offense when people feel entitled to more than I am willing to give in the the form of ongoing dialogue.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Liberation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:22 am

Hi Sarah,

I was just wondering if there are any new materials on abx treatment of MS since we last talked. That time we talked about that I would be happy to connect either your husband or someone from the Vanderbilt team with my neuro who is not against the idea of bacterial infection playing a role in MS. I am sure that an open minded neuro would be able to draw some important conclusions on whom to treat and interpret results with the help of an abx expert.

I am in a pause of the abx treatment righ now, but I would continue it. As I am not a doctor it was really hard for me to interpret any results on the use of the abx, not to mention to interpret any side effects. When, I talked to Sriram the only thing that he told me was that abx is not effictive for everyone. Also, others like Dr. Borody already presented preliminary study on the effect of FMT on MS patients that might substantiate the use of abx for a different reason, but also raises the danger of abx. It would be nice to discuss the use of this therapy with other specialists who might supervise our treatment. For some reason, you know that the general thoughts on the long term use of abx is not good. So, it would be good to start a dialouge with those people who are open to this theory. I think it would be better for everyone if we could get real abx and our treatment would be supervised by doctors. If you read cunsumerlab reports, you will find out that most uncontrolled supplements do not contain the stuff what is on its label. That is fact, not speculation. As I guess, there is no intelectual property that can be lost in disclosing findings with off-patented abx, I would really look forward some info provided to open minded neuros and doctors.

It would be really good if the tremendous knowledge accumulated with your husband and the Vanderbilt specialits would be passed on to others as shouldn't be lost by time. Yound scientists might give more impulses to a great theory.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby CuriousRobot » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:51 am

In order to be sold in the US, generic antibiotics must pass pharmacokinetic (bioequivalence) studies.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Liberation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:49 am

CuriousRobot wrote:In order to be sold in the US, generic antibiotics must pass pharmacokinetic (bioequivalence) studies.


Hello Curious,
what is your point? I suppose there is the same situation in the EU. If you buy any prescription drug in a pharmacy you will get the right stuff.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby NZer1 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:05 pm

CONCEPT OF STEALTH INFECTIONS
Submitted by Bec Mills
As a Soft Tissue Therapist I treat varying musculoskeletal aches and pains that are commonly associated with muscle tightness and postural imbalances. However when the cause of symptoms are complicated or ‘unknown’ as commonly found with autoimmune conditions, it can be hard to find treatment that works. My interest in chronic illness stems from my father having Bipolar disorder and my grandmother passing with Alzheimer’s. This interest became my passion, after meeting a patient who had been successfully treated in the U.S for her chronic pain condition Fibromyalgia. The news gets better, because the evaluation and treatment this patient underwent is not common practice here in Australia, I had an excuse to travel to the U.S and meet with leading field experts to learn more.
According to Microbiologist Professor Garth Nicolson, founder of the Institute For Molecular Medicine, California U.S, stealth type bacterial infections can play a causal role in illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Multiple Sclerosis, Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, Arthritis, Autism and Lyme Disease.
In an interview, Dr Nicolson explains to me that chronic infections can lead to auto-immune problems, disorders involving the central and peripheral nervous systems and play havoc with nerve transmission. The infection process causes damage to cell membranes which leads to fatigue, loss of energy, loss of ability to perform functions, and can impair our ability to think, remember, understand and sleep.
“Stealth infections are in general bacterial infections but in some cases can be viral infections. They get inside cells and hide inside cells and can’t be seen by the immune system. The most common stealth infections we have studied and found amongst fatiguing and neurodegenerative diseases are Chlamydia pneumoniae, Mycoplasma and Borrelia burgdorferi. These intracellular bacteria have different life forms, some of them are free swimming, some of them are inside cells, some of them are metabolically active and some forms are metabolically inactive. When they are metabolically inactive they are very difficult to find. Their genetic signature is not as strong.”
According to Dr Nicolson, when these underlying infections are identified they can be treated with a number of therapies such as combination anti-biotic therapy and addressing dietary requirements to boost the immune system. “Stealth infections are best identified by molecular means, such as examining DNA. They aren’t picked up in routine lab tests.”
This important process is not part of orthodox screening and treatment for stealth infections is not traditionally included in protocol for those suffering with chronic illness.
http://beyondthebandaid.com.au/concept- ... nfections/



I purchased the downloadable copy and I am totally impressed by the work Bec Mills has done to put this together.
People would not know about the Stealth group of Bacterial Illnesses that are co-incidental with many, many diseases such as MS and Vascular Diseases of many labels.
So;
Haven't yet watched Invisibly ILL, A Stealth Reality? Read for yourself what the experts are saying about it http://beyondthebandaid.com.au/testimon ... bec-mills/
http://beyondthebandaid.com.au/testimon ... bec-mills/
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby NZer1 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:06 pm

Another video with Sarah and Dr David Wheldon plus Dr Paul Thibault of Australia;

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3572695.htm
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby CuriousRobot » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:55 pm

Liberation wrote:
CuriousRobot wrote:In order to be sold in the US, generic antibiotics must pass pharmacokinetic (bioequivalence) studies.
Hello Curious,
what is your point? I suppose there is the same situation in the EU. If you buy any prescription drug in a pharmacy you will get the right stuff.
My point is this:
Liberation wrote:I think it would be better for everyone if we could get real abx and our treatment would be supervised by doctors.
They are without a doubt real (in the US).
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby Liberation » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:02 pm

CuriousRobot wrote:
Liberation wrote:
CuriousRobot wrote:In order to be sold in the US, generic antibiotics must pass pharmacokinetic (bioequivalence) studies.
Hello Curious,
what is your point? I suppose there is the same situation in the EU. If you buy any prescription drug in a pharmacy you will get the right stuff.
My point is this:
Liberation wrote:I think it would be better for everyone if we could get real abx and our treatment would be supervised by doctors.
They are without a doubt real (in the US).


You misunderstood me. I have no problems with prescribed abx, but how can you get prescription without presenting anything to your doctor about the connection between cpn and MS???? No one has doubt about drugs sold officially in the US or in the EU.

I talked about internet orders of abx that you can get without prescription in countries like Panama, Thailand, etc.

Also, practicing doctors have different opinion about the long term use of abx. This is why I tried to get some materials on the issue that can be presented to the doctor who precribes it. Lets face it I can not tell my doctor that someone on the net behind a nickname said that it is good for MS, so please prescribe it for me.
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Re: Insights to Bacterial MS and other de-generative disease

Postby NZer1 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:40 pm

For those of us with 'Bacterial MS' (Lyme, CPn etc) and who are being treated with an Anti-biotic Protocol this article will be of interest :) Nigel

Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction
Although RA is discussed in particular, patients with other inflammatory rheumatic diseases will recognize many issues mentioned here.
The Jarisch -Herxheimer, or Herxheimer reaction, was named for the German dermatologist, Karl Herxheimer (1844-1947). Dorlands Medical Dictionary refers to the Herxheimer reaction as a transient, short-term, immunological reaction commonly seen following antibiotic treatment of early and later stage [infectious] diseases which [may be] manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgias (muscle pain), and exacerbations of cutaneous lesions. The reaction has been attributed to liberation of endotoxins-like substances or of antigens (a substance which causes an immune reaction) from the killed or dying microorganisms.
A TRANSIENT SHORT-TERM, IMMUNOLOGICAL REACTION
What does this mean in layman's terms? The Herxheimer flare reaction may be the first indication that the antibiotic is reaching its target and is therefore considered a good sign. In his original book, The Road Back, the late Thomas McPherson Brown, MD noted that the reaction caused a temporary worsening of symptoms.
The amount of medication may be directly related to the intensity of the flare. Medications which have no effect on mycoplasma (or other microbes) do not provoke this reaction nor do these medications generally have a favorable long-term effect on the disease. Unlike the RA flare, which can last for weeks or even months, the Herxheimer flare reaction is often of short duration. (Scleroderma patients who do not exhibit inflammatory components to their disease generally do not report a Herxheimer of clinical significance.)
Large doses of antibiotics may initially caused a worsening or flare reaction in many of the rheumatic diseases. The rheumatic diseases which are most hypersensitive (rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, psoriatic arthritis, etc.) have shown similar, distinct and often severe flare reactions from even a low dose of antibiotic. According to Dr. Brown, when the resulting released toxins go to the joints, joint pain is the result; when they go to the brain, depression may result.
Dr. Brown found the Herxheimer effect showed a number of important principles at work. It demonstrated that the disease was a hypersensitive reaction, not to the drug itself, but to the toxins that a microbe creates in response to the drug's presence. And, it opened the way to a chemical attack (with medications) on the whole area of arthritis and rheumatic diseases.
Dr. Brown found that rheumatic diseases are often associated with a high degree of tissue sensitivity. It was soon observed that a more potent antibiotic would produce a more marked flare reaction because of this tissue sensitivity. By keeping the dosage low, it was possible to gradually remove the microorganisms from the tissues without causing major clinical worsening of the disease. If these microorganisms were truly present and responsible for the hypersensitivity reaction, long term, low dose treatment would result in clinical improvement of symptoms in patients.
Dr. Brown recognized he was not dealing with an ordinary infectious problem where microbial invasion was the prominent feature. The reaction of the patient to the infectious organism was as important as the organism itself.
In the historical protocol as determined by Dr. Brown, the use of low dosage cortisone in conjunction with the antibiotics, either prevented or modified such flare reactions. Chemical worsening of the blood figures in lab testing was not generally noticeable until much larger doses of the antibiotics were given.
Usually the first clinical changes to occur are those of lessening of the duration of morning stiffness. In many patients under long term management, the morning stiffness disappears altogether.
When the severity of the arthritic condition begins to lessen, either from a spontaneous improvement or as a result of the continued treatment with a carefully measured dose of antibiotic, a greater tolerance of the antibiotic is generally noticed and larger doses are tolerated without the return of the Herxheimer flare reaction. If the dose has been increased too rapidly at any time, the initial flare reaction may occur again. However, some patients need to remain on a low, intermittent dose and respond well.
The standard prescription for antibiotic use in non-rheumatic diseases is a high dose for a short period of time. The overall guidelines for rheumatic diseases for avoiding too severe a Herxheimer flare are dependent on careful use of low dose and attention to frequency of administration. This treatment methodology calls for low dose antibiotics prescribed over a long period of time-- a very different protocol than usual for the prescribing of antibiotics.
TREATING THE FLARE
Since the Herxheimer is a drug related flare, treating the symptoms and allowing the flare to run its course will enable the antibiotic to attack the offending microorganism and hasten recovery. Treat the pain symptoms with pain medications which don't block the effect of the antibiotic and which don't suppress the immune system ( i.e.: not high doses of steroids.) The pain of the Herxheimer will diminish as the reaction runs its course, making the need for pain medications or those which address increased inflammation less needed over time. Remember, a Herxheimer is a reaction to the effects of an antibiotic on the microorganism causing the disease, while an RA flare is a worsening of disease.
The Road Back Foundation does not engage in the practice of medicine. Consult with a physician to assess any medical treatment that is being considered. The Road Back Foundation encourages healthcare consumers to thoroughly investigate and understand all treatments and medications before proceeding. This material is for educational purposes only.
The Road Back Foundation
P.O. Box 410184
Cambridge, MA 02141
614-227-1556
www.roadback.org
http://www.roadback.org/index.cfm/fusea ... id/91.html
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