A post from my site to help other with CPn treating;
I have been reading through a site that achieved my attention and have ironically come across something very relative to me and where my health is heading on the Protocol.
I am guessing that Paul Thibault is getting feedback from patients about the 'Herx' phenomonon and is looking for solutions.
Where to from here?https://www.facebook.com/doctordavidjernigan
10 February via Mobile
Health tip of the day: I am the first doctor to take a stand against using Herxheimer reactions as guide and indication of "good" treatment.
When a doctor uses a natural or pharmaceutical antibiotic to kill some Lyme spirochetes in a person, there is often a resultant Jarisch- Herxheimer reaction (Herx) -- a worsening of the patient’s symptoms in response to the increased release of bacterial die-off toxins. The toxins are deposited into the bloodstream and are circulated throughout the body.
These toxins damage tissues in the body and are one of the primary reasons that symptoms can persist even after the actual Bb infection is gone; the toxin-damage can remain as an irritant in the tissues for years.
In truth, a severe Herxheimer reaction is a sign of poor elimination pathway drainage, poor organ and tissue support, and a poor treatment philosophy by your doctor!
The body of most chronic Lyme sufferers is a toxic dump to start with; if the doctor does not get the pathways of elimination open and working, the body gets even more toxic when the bacteria begin to die and their toxins release.
The person with Lyme Disease has already suffered enough and does not need to go through a Herx just to prove they have Lyme Disease!
In my opinion, it is unnecessary and barbaric for a doctor to want and expect their patients to feel worse for years as an indication of good treatment.
Just say NO to herx's!
When you are looking for an "LLMD," your first question to the doctor should be, "How will you know the treatment is working?" If they say, "I will know because you will start feeling worse, due to a Herx reaction," I would suggest you find a new doctor.
Insist on a better treatment plan!
Reply comment, one of many;
Susan Ortolano Doreen S- herxing is when we have some kind of treatment that causes a temporary increase in symptoms due to the 'die off' of the bacteria and the toxins that go with them. It is supposed to be 'temporary' and many docs, including some LLMDs say its a sign that treatment is working. As Dr. Jernigan effectively explains in his post, herxing isnt necessarily a sign that treatment is working, but a sign that the body has poor elimiation pathways as well as poor organ and issue support, meaning that the body is off balance, isnt moving the toxins out properly and is recirculating them back into the body, which can cause some damage. This damage can remain even when the intitial infection is gone. In my experience, herxing got so bad for me, I could barely move, my body swelled up so badly, and had burnng pain from head to toe. It was a nightmare. I previously had been doing better, but thought i would try some new abx, and some untested homeopathic treatment by docs who didnt know what they were doing. Although my healing process has been slower than I'd like it to be, Dr. jernigan and Dr. Jowdy, through their bio resonance scnning process were able to test my body for what it needed and combine homeopathic and herbal remedies that I previously would never in a million years though i could tolerate, given my past experience. At Hansa, they are treating and balancing the whole body, not just trying to kill the infections. Its been a longer process for me than I would want of course, and we are still working on things, but its been getting better. I wouldnt dream of going back to the "kill the bacteria and herx" way of healing. Meanwhile, bac here at home, Im doing some adjunct therapies to help things along, and looking forward to my next trip to Hansa in the spring.
11 February at 12:32
A question and reply session on the subject and others;
Nigel Wadham DrDavid Jernigan
Hi Dr D, have there been any studies on Lyme or CPn bacteria in a before and after chronic infection sense to confirm if the bacteria/spirochetes are biologically the same in people who are 'resistant to infection' and people who have chronic infections?
I am thinking because CPn bacteria (stealth bacteria) for instance have the ability to adapt DNA, go dormant if there is threats eg ABx, infect I...See More
Nigel Wadham The 30% outcomes in CCSVI make me wonder if this is also an outcome where the environment has been made uninhabitable by better blood flow as well as enabling repair of vein walls/BBB. This improvement could then correspond with findings that the valve...See More
I am unaware of any such studies.
Thanks, is this something that you believe to be worthy of investigation?
I get the feeling after reading other outcomes from people such as Terry Wahls, George Jelinek, and Stephen Buhner that the issues found that correct a problem are different to the 'cause' of the problem.
To word that another way it appears a diet lacking anti-microbial and anti-bacterial herbs throughout life is the issue, the outcome is an environment that for example bacteria can thrive and adapt themselves to easily. The process of correcting the issue or health outcome will often need be very broad in method to 're-boot' many areas of a synergenic health system.
The ability of bacteria to diversify to the environment and avoid threats such as mono-ABx treatments shows that we will have huge difficulty finding the beginning of issues. A lifetime of diets without herbal anti-microbials and anti-bacterials is going to be a mine field to traverse and correct to wellness.
Is this how you see the situation?
The model of biofilm infection was first proposed over a decade ago. Recent scientific advances have added much to our understanding of biofilms, usually polymicrobial communities, which are commonly associated with chronic infection. Metagenomics has demonstrated that bacteria pursuing a biofilm strategy possess many mechanisms for encouraging diversity. By including multiple bacterial and/or fungal species in a single community, biofilms obtain numerous advantages, such as passive resistance, metabolic cooperation, byproduct influence, quorum sensing systems, an enlarged gene pool with more efficient DNA sharing, and many other synergies, which give them a competitive advantage. Routine clinical cultures are ill-suited for evaluating polymicrobial infections. DNA methods utilizing PCR methods, PCR/mass spectroscopy and sequencing have demonstrated their ability to identify microorganisms and quantitate their contribution to biofilms in clinical infections. A more robust model of biofilm infection along with more accurate diagnosis is rapidly translating into improved clinical outcomes.http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 6/abstract
Can you briefly explain your comment about Herxheimer type reactions not being necessary or a good sign please.
I am guessing that intracellular diseases such as CPn treatment are a different re-balancing process than Lyme treatment and that co-infections of Lyme and CPn would have to have a herxheimer reaction.
I cannot see how intracellular bacteria can be removed without endo-toxins being part of the process when a person has a chronic active infection in diseases such as MS.
Look forward to your reply, thanks,
Please see my FB posts on this topic. Also google Dr. David A. Jernigan Toxins, Herx and such. Thanks
I had read your page and not found answers to my question that is why I took the time to ask you directly David.
Can you please give me a direct answer, thanks, Nigel
Okay Nigel direct or not, your question cannot be DIRECTLY answered. I will not, and cannot answer your question to your satisfaction as no one has worked out the exact biochemical processes.
It appears you are saying if you make the environment for the bacteria inhospitable they will depart.
My mind asks what about intra-cellular bacteria who go into hibernation and remain in you cells? When intra-cellular cells'depart' your system are they alive or dead and there for endo-toxin is unavoidable?
I am sorry but I don't have time to discuss the intricacies of this topic. I appreciate you wanting to know. If you read my book you will know what I know...which is little enough.
Thanks I have read many impressions of what is happening and find Stephen Buhners version understandable. I find it hard to see why you put the statement about Herx being unnecessary or a poor outcome in writing if there is no answer to questions like mine. I for one are on the receiving end of the reaction and I am looking for knowledge and support to wellness, which I do talk about.
I also understand there are things we can't explain but find that work, this is why I asked for help to begin a process of finding help with experienced practitioners.
One more question why do you remove some posts and not others on your FB page?
In regard to your book I did find an out let that sells the ebook version as Amazon only advertise the paper print.
If you can neutralize the toxins they cease to be toxins and they have no toxic effect.
I regulate what I want on my page to control content and leave the primary focus for the Health Tips, which often get buried. It is not really a forum...it is my fb page. No offense.
I do take offense when people feel entitled to more than I am willing to give in the the form of ongoing dialogue.