I eliminated my post

A forum for the discussion of antibiotics as a potential therapy for MS

I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:23 am

I eliminated my post
Last edited by beatms on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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more candida talk

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:29 pm

hi beat, yes i don't think my candida story is quite as nasty as yours, but i definitely see where you're coming from. it's like the incautious use of the antibiotics leads into a candida related downward spiral.

i think i'm repeating myself here, but i think it's like a dietary form of alcoholism since one of the waste products is ethanol, right? so when you feed them the sugary foods they pump out the booze. and then you get hooked on it and keep getting cravings for more carbs and sugary foods. come to think of it i've heard of a book about carbohydrate addiction - i wonder if it's because of candida!

glad you found a way to get clear of it!
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:07 pm

I eliminated my post
Last edited by beatms on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ms mri link

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:43 pm

hey beat did you see the mri that viper found online that looked most like his own brain scan. it looks like mine too. hit this link you will find it rather interesting...
In doing research I came across a cool site where you can see actual MRI's of patients and their problems, sometimes with detailed notes. I searched MS, none of the lesions looked like what my MRI looked like. I finally found one though. See link: My MRI looked VERY much like this one (speaking of Fig.1, and Fig.2).

http://www.mypacs.net/cgi-bin/repos/mpv3_repo/wrm/repo-view.pl?cx_subject=252190&cx_image_only_mode=off&cx_repo=mpv3_repo&cx_from_folder=
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:15 pm

I eliminated my post
Last edited by beatms on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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candida/lesion location

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:14 pm

hey beat, all i know is that it is a brain scan of a patient with candidiasis, and that it looks like my brain. except mine is not quite that bad. i am ten years younger than that patient after all.

about the location of candida vs lesions: i suppose if you consider the waste product of candida, gliotoxin, which kills nerve cells, that would mean the location of the lesions would coincide with areas where gliotoxin was being excreted by a concentration of candida organisms. or where the gliotoxin was not being cleared adequately by blood flow? what do you think...
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Postby beatms » Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:12 am

Jimmy, It sounds like candida can produce gliotoxin, and that it has the potential to wreak havoc. I have also read the potential for neuron destruction from gliotoxin. I wonder how much to the problem is this contributabing? I need to think about this more in relation to the thyroid, and perhaps make some changes to my hypothesis. Good stuff, though.

Dave


Arh Hig Rada Toksikol. 2004 Nov;55(4):313-20. Related Articles, Links


[Chemistry and biological effects of gliotoxin]

[Article in Croatian]

Kosalec I, Pepeljnjak S.

Zavod za mikrobiologiju Farmaceutsko-biokemijskog fakulteta Sveucilista u Zagrebu, Zagreb. ivan.kosalec@zg.htnet.hr

Gliotoxin is a mycotoxin from the epipolythiodioxypipeazine family with biological active internal disulfide bridge. Gliotoxin has an antibacterial and antiviral activity, but it was discarded from clinical practice due to its toxicity. The most studied effect of gliotoxin is its influence on the cell of the immune system. Today, researches are focused on treating transplantation organs ex situ and making them immunologically silent. Its toxicity has been proven on several cells (macrophages, thymocites, splenocytes, and fibroblasts) causing apoptosis and necrosis and it has acted as inhibitor of several enzymes (farnesyl-transefases, NF-kappaB, and alcohol-dehydrogenases). Its mechanism of toxicity is connected with the production of mixed disulfide and covalent bonds, and oxidative effects. An important medical mould Aspergillus fumigatus and yeast Candida albicans can secrete gliotoxin in infected tissues and, because of the proven toxic effects of gliotoxin, it is suggested that gliotoxin can exacerbate mycoses (invasive aspergillosis or candidiasis). Gliotoxin can also affect the invasiveness of fungi and their dissemination from the primary site throughout the organism.
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more on candida

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:11 pm

hi beat ya i posted that abstract in some other thread on this site. good one isn't it!

there was another abstract in that thread, that talked about how csf was taken from ms patients and dumped on some live cells in vitro, and the csf from the ms patients killed the cells that you would expect to be implicated in ms... if you were following the cell-death-comes-before-the- immune-system-reaction idea. then they isolated what it was in the csf of the ms patients that was toxic to the cells, and it was gliotoxin. this stuff blows my mind!
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Postby beatms » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:31 am

Jimmy,

I wonder if the gliotoxicity can come along with thyroid metabolic neuropathy. In other words, it might be possible that people with excessive and/or prolonged intestinal dysbiosis have multiple channels of neurological destruction.

-Dave
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Postby mrhodes40 » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:48 pm

OK I can help clear up some stuff in this thread.Early on in my MS I was given "the Yeast Connection" by my Aunt. I was treated aggressively for candida in '93-94. It did not help me at all. I have kept an interest in things related to this since then though and have seen the fungal thoeries of MS out there on the net. I did not use diflucan all those years ago and I wondered from time to time if more should have been done.

But I've learned more since then and am sharing it here:

First off, this site http://www.mypacs.net/cgi-bin/repos/mpv ... om_folder= is showing the brain MRI of someone with invasive candidiasis. This is a known disease and it is not MS your neuro could tell. None of you have MRI's that look "exactly like" that one cause if you do you will not be here long. IC is seen mostly in immunocompromised people like HIV .

Two, gliotoxin in the brain IS NOT CANDIDA GLIOTOXIN. This is sort of like the word antibiotic meaning a whole lot of things from grapefruit seed extract to pennicillin. Gliotoxin means something that harms nerves, like the heat resistant factor in the brain of MS patients and also like the candida gliotoxin but they have different structures and are not the same.

I did not figure this out on my own, I asked Dr Wheldon who is a consultant microbiologist -for americans that means same thing as an MD with a board certified specialty in germs- if there was a possibility that the fungal connection which this thread also discusses could be another way that MS can be reached, thus leaving people on abx at risk if they triggered more candida by using antibiotics, and he immediately said I bet they used the Menard reference to make that supposition and the structures are different. He got back to me the next day and sure enough, gliotoxin made by candida and gliotoxin found in MS BRAINS are two completely different molecules, and on reviewing the fungal site and theory I see that it is mendard (it was posted in this thread too) that wsa used to support the idea.

This is a mistake and a very basic error. It should never have gottne to print. There is no evidence of candida in MS brains nor of their byproducts. Thanks to Dr Wheldon for whom these things are every day ho hum stuff who took his time to evaluate this.

It was however a great relief to me to know that there's one theory I need not worry about, and people using abx need not be concerned. If you look on his site on the NAC page, you can read this from him and not use my hearsay
http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/NAC.html

As different from Candida, which has no investigators anywhere in the world publishing data that shows oligoclonal bands are actually candida reactive, or that the MS brain does indeed have it there, CPn has a number of studies that directly tie CPn to MS brains. Not every study does but many do, in contrast to candida which has absolutely none whatsoever. The whole theory is based on the gliotoxin mistake described here and it is a theory only.

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Postby MacKintosh » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:23 pm

BRAVA, Marie! Clearly stated, solid science, personal experience cited. We couldn't ask for much more than that. Thank you.
The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:33 pm

I eliminated my post
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