Get to know the side effects-especially long term

A forum for the discussion of antibiotics as a potential therapy for MS

Get to know the side effects-especially long term

Postby beatms » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:32 am

When you get your prescription, why not ask what are the possible side effect, long term risks, and alternatives? Are we as informed as we should be when start popping pills, supplements, or whatever?

-Dave
Last edited by beatms on Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:50 pm, edited 31 times in total.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:46 am

Dear Dave,

I looked up oregano oil and vancomycin fist of all in Google and found myself confronted by reams and reams of stuff by Naturopaths, Herbalists and a site entitled "Scientists find no Genetic Evidence for Evolution", which title reminded me of the mother whose children I used to tutor, who thought that fossils were put in rocks by the devil, to confuse mankind. I did find this piece in Urban Legends, though:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/garlic.htm


According to a study performed by Dr. Harry Preuss at Georgetown University, tests on mice appear to prove that oregano oil (in particular, carvacrol, one of oregano's chemical components) reduce infection as effectively as traditional antibiotics. The oil was tested against the antibiotics streptomycin, penicillin, and vancomycin.
Preuss presented his findings in October 2001 at the American College of Nutrition's annual meeting in Orlando. His study was paid for by North American Herb and Spice, a company admittedly with a vested interest in herb production and sale.

It's at this point that science and the claims made about garlic and oil of oregano part ways. Nowhere in the study now so often pointed to does Preuss make claims about oil of oregano being effective against anthrax.

Preuss and Georgetown University say claims arising from this study that oil of oregano is a natural antibiotic "that is proven to be active against anthrax..." are grossly misleading. The study doesn't say that. Likewise, we've yet to locate any study done by anyone that makes this claim, either about oil of oregano or garlic.

Current assertions that either of these substances are effective against anthrax have yet to be substantiated and are based on overstatements of what has so far been studied. It's a far reach from "garlic is a nice little home remedy for an infected finger" to "garlic will save you and yours from anthrax," yet that is the reach those intent upon vending herbal remedies or soapboxing about natural solutions have resorted to.


So, I looked up the same in PubMed and what did I find? Nothing, as I expected. The Georgetwn research dates back to before 2001. Vancomycin is still the antibiotic of last resort when all else has failed and Dr. Preuss has been much misquoted. Just looking up oregano oil, though, you can find plenty about its action against intestinal pathogens. Dave, I am not ridden with intestinal pathogens running riot, I have MS and I don't hold much truck with people who say that Medical research shows that yeast overgrowth is connected with multiple sclerosis without citing any references, especially when you choose to completely ignore Marie's excellent post in your thread "I feel abx caused my MS, & now I think I'm nearly cured" and now copied here:

OK I can help clear up some stuff in this thread.Early on in my MS I was given "the Yeast Connection" by my Aunt. I was treated aggressively for candida in '93-94. It did not help me at all. I have kept an interest in things related to this since then though and have seen the fungal theories of MS out there on the net. I did not use diflucan all those years ago and I wondered from time to time if more should have been done.

But I've learned more since then and am sharing it here:

First off, this site http://tinyurl.com/rhvgc is showing the brain MRI of someone with invasive candidiasis. This is a known disease and it is not MS your neuro could tell. None of you have MRI's that look "exactly like" that one cause if you do you will not be here long. IC is seen mostly in immunocompromised people like HIV .

Two, gliotoxin in the brain IS NOT CANDIDA GLIOTOXIN. This is sort of like the word antibiotic meaning a whole lot of things from grapefruit seed extract to penicillin. Gliotoxin means something that harms nerves, like the heat resistant factor in the brain of MS patients and also like the candida gliotoxin but they have different structures and are not the same.

I did not figure this out on my own, I asked Dr Wheldon who is a consultant microbiologist -for Americans that means same thing as an MD with a board certified specialty in germs- if there was a possibility that the fungal connection which this thread also discusses could be another way that MS can be reached, thus leaving people on abx at risk if they triggered more candida by using antibiotics, and he immediately said I bet they used the Menard reference to make that supposition and the structures are different. He got back to me the next day and sure enough, gliotoxin made by candida and gliotoxin found in MS BRAINS are two completely different molecules, and on reviewing the fungal site and theory I see that it is Menard (it was posted in this thread too) that was used to support the idea.

This is a mistake and a very basic error. It should never have gotten to print. There is no evidence of candida in MS brains nor of their by-products. Thanks to Dr Wheldon for whom these things are every day ho hum stuff who took his time to evaluate this.

It was however a great relief to me to know that there's one theory I need not worry about, and people using abx need not be concerned. If you look on his site on the NAC page, you can read this from him and not use my hearsay
http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/NAC.html

As different from Candida, which has no investigators anywhere in the world publishing data that shows oligoclonal bands are actually candida reactive, or that the MS brain does indeed have it there, CPn has a number of studies that directly tie CPn to MS brains. Not every study does but many do, in contrast to candida which has absolutely none whatsoever. The whole theory is based on the gliotoxin mistake described here and it is a theory only.

Marie


Now back to work,

Sarah
Last edited by SarahLonglands on Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:47 am

Double posted. :oops:

However, oregano oil is not the most powerful antibiotic in the world, it merely has some antibiotic properties and is probably a good thing to take from time to time to ward off various infections, if you and those around you can stand the smell.....Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:46 am

I eliminated my post
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Postby SarahLonglands » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:22 am

As I said, you can find loads of things if you just type in oregano oil, but not if you include vancomycin. Oregano oil won't cure someone of MRSA. I am not a bit sceptical of ideas other than taking antibiotics and my husband's profession has nothing to do with what I think. I have a mind of my own and I use it. I am fully aware of the dangers of antibiotic resistance and so is he. He has to be. He spends a lot of time advising doctors with a lesser knowledge of antibiotics when they are not appropriate. Yeast overgrowth is not as much of a problem as you seem to think, unless, maybe, you have end stage AIDS, as the person in the link Marie gave had........Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:54 am

I eliminated my post
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Postby Brainteaser » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:59 pm

My opinion.......

To be honest, I am becoming a little frustrated and disappointed by the strong opinions expressed in posts such as this, unreasonably presented in the form of 'science'. From what I can see, much of what is presented by both sides is nothing more than persuasive argument, which is fine as long as it is recognised as such. I and I expect others, do not have a lot of time to wade through copious scientific reports in order to check the veracity of that being said. Forgive me but I work in a legal area. so I am possibly programed to go 'ho-hum' regarding exaggerated claims and thin argument. From what I can see, the main points of this thread can be distilled down to:
1. Oil of Oregano is a good thing to take.
2. There's comfort in the Bible.
3. For a healthy body, candida should be controlled.
4. Some people, diagnosed with MS, have improved from a course of abx.
Is there anything else?
If that's all that is being said, then we others can draw our own conclusions about this advice and follow it if we so choose.........Just my opinion.
Regards,
Phil.
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Postby sojourner » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:14 pm

Brainteaser,
I have a cure for what ails you---your frustration and disappointment that is---just skip over the threads that cause you these emotions. Everyone would benefit.

Dave,
Now you have really peaked my curiosity. What types of abx were you on, how long and exactly how much flagyl did you take. Here's why I ask, could it be possible that the reason you are feeling so well today is because of all the abx you took?

My theory is this, you were slowly getting sicker, your immune system was being compromised by an infection. You took a lot of abx and felt as if in the long run they made you sicker. Actually, that is very much like the healing process that many who have MS and are now on abx are experiencing.

If my husband didn't know that at first he would feel much worse when starting abx, we would have run screaming away from the treatment, for he felt horrible. One could even mistake this reaction as an MS exacerbation.

I know you feel abx gave you MS, but this is just my observation of one possible reason you got better. I think eating healthy and taking soil organisms and probiotics is fantastic, yet have you ever thought of this other possibility?
Lexy
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Postby Brainteaser » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:21 pm

Hi sojourner,

Ouch - sounds like I may have ruffled some feathers!.....which was not my intention. 'Everyone would benefit', apparently from me not taking the opportunity to politely question the veracity of statements on this board, seemingly exaggerated or poorly argued. That sounds like a mature and helpful response.......

Regards,
Phil.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:47 pm

Brainteaser I want to say appreciate everyone's input and want to say some of my personal best thinking comes in response to what others post even if it is different from my own point of view. I do strive though to show where I get my information so that people can know/read for themselves something I say, but I hope I do not leave unclear references personally.

and I agree with you that a list of references is frustrating in a thread like this. It is much better if statements of interest are quoted and highlighted so thers can see your logic. Sharon is a master of this. I also agree that this thread is frustrating because the person advocating oregano oil as the most powerful antibiotic in the world is not stating something that is factual. The efforts to uncover the inaccuracy were met with a lack of good references but instead by a goony list of general research that is unrelated to the question at hand which is essentially "with EXACTLY what do you support the statement that oregano oil is the most powrful?" . The Preuss reference was already disproved by showing a reference that quotes the university in question saying that the research is misquoted.

It might be best if the thread were ignored by others but the fact is that this particular forum is for people using antibiotics based on the research done at Vanderbilt University in the US that showed some people with MS have Chlamydia pneumoniae in their brains. As such the thisisms members who use this board are very, very interested in antibiotics, the possibility of candida overgrowth and what that might mean to them and whether or not it may worsen their MS. If you were taking several antibiotics for months to a couple of years using a CAPS protocol then a natural "most powerful antibiotc" is interesting, the possibility that candida might be causing MS is concerning, and overall the presence on this forum of someone who is saying that antibiotics CAUSE MS is someone people want to hold to a high standard for "proof" of statements made.

Thisisms is a great website that I am personally very grateful for, the free exchange of ideas, and the possibility that a person can say what is on their mind without being censored by monied groups (try to talk about antibiotic treatment in the national MS society magazine) is a great relief.

I hope the idea that candida is causing MS is sufficiently laid to rest with the work done on other threads in this forum. I hope it is also clear that oregano oil was misquoted as being equal to vancomycin the the preuss research. And I want to thank EVERY one who posted something to say. It helps us all when efforts are made to debate these issues.
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Postby Brainteaser » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:14 pm

Hi Marie,

Thank you for your helpful and measured response. Certainly, I would not want to discourage anyone from trying the abx regimen, nor any other regimen, for that matter. Rather, I would hope that MSers do take the opportunity to experiment with alternative MS treatments.

Having said that and keeping this response as generic as possible, I'd simply like to state that from my observations, any MS treatment has about a 33% chance of success, which (coincidently) is about the same level of success as a placebo. I may be being a little simplistic, but to me that roughly parallels with people, including the so-called 'MS experts' being more than likely to be wrong about anything to do with MS. As is said, the only certainty with MS is uncertainty. Mostly, that's been my experience over many years. So it is against that background that I am a little uncomfortable when people make emphatic statements about specifics of MS. I just think that at times we need to pull back a bit, from pushing a particular cause. I suspect that ego has a lot to do with a tendency to labour a particular viewpoint whereas greater credibility might be achieved by allowing for a margin of error.

As I say, I am not directing this at any matter in particular and I fully support those following the abx regimen.

Cheers,
Phil.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:26 am

Phil
I agree the 33% placebo issue is a big one and likely the key to a lot of disinformation. I also think it is incredible that our approved therapies fall into about that range at considrable cost.

Since I was diagnosed long before any approved drugs I attended a lecture in which an MS expert from the University of Washington told us all in the room to be very skeptical since MS is prone to remission and placebos result in about 33% effectiveness. He assured us that real cures would be way beyond that and that they were almost here then proceded to give us a quick overview of the then new research and interferons soon to be out. Statements about how the immune system went awry and how interferons would fix it were made.

I left feeling excited and lucky to be diagnosed now not earlier as well as pretty sure the "success" some people in my local MS chapter had with alternatives was related to the factors he mentioned and not any real efficacy. I felt glad for medicine and their scientific approach and good that they knew and recongnized peculiarities of the disease and thus would factor for those. I felt smart, in the know and impressed

It has been incredible to me that since then that I progressed while on copaxone for 10 years and that my MRI's are beautiful in spite of progression ( I must be one of many in this boat)and medicine still thinks it has to be inflammation that causes MS. It amazes me that these numbers, which I was told were automatically suspect because of what we were dealing with, are suddenly now "proof that suppression works" , a statement made to me personally by the same doctor who was the lectuerer all those years ago and who is now my doctor. He said that to me when I mentioned that there was some research that showed MS might be infective...he aid no way the CRABS work so it has to be autoimmune. :?

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I eliminated my post

Postby beatms » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:02 pm

I eliminated my post
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candida and oligoclonal

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:19 am

As different from Candida, which has no investigators anywhere in the world publishing data that shows oligoclonal bands are actually candida reactive


"published" vs "publishing"

Ann Neurol. 1978 Dec;4(6):579-81. Related Articles, Links
Occurrence of candida-specific oligoclonal IgG antibodies in CSF with candida meningoencephalitis.

i can't get the full text and there's no abstract, may not have anything to do with anything, but there it is.
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Postby sojourner » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:54 am

Thanks Dave for responding, but I still have unanswered questions.

I'd rather ask you these in public than on private e-mail because I feel we can be more collaborative and use everyone as a resource to come to a fuller understanding of your healing process.

You say you were on abx from "day one" for sinus, did you have MS symptoms before sinusistis? How long were you on augmentin and were you on other abx concurrently or after? How long were you on Falgyl?

I am really trying to understand your disease progression here because it is possible, if you leave behind your theory for just one second, that taking abx could have made your MS symptoms feel worse (we know this as the classic herxheimer) and then being unlucky enough to contract C. Diff resulted in you getting flagyl which could have ultimately led to you feeling much better after you got off of it.

Many times people with MS mistake abx as the cause of them feeling worse and take this as a warning that a certain abx is bad for MS. For those of us who have now been on or through abx therapy, we know that this is just not the case. In fact, the abx usually does make an MSer feel worse, but later after the resolution of the herxheimer they feel much better.

The administration of abx for your sinus infection is very similar to what happened to my husband. He had been on abx VERY infrequently during his life, however, after getting what he thought was a sinus infection that never resolved he went to the doc and was prescribed abx for this. During the time he was on the abx he had an increase in symptoms with strange new facial sensations and what the ENT termed "neurological" stuff.

Our current, doc doing some medical anthropolgy, actually suggested that that course of abx caused---not an exacerbation, but a pseudo exacerbation---in other words, a herxheimer.

So you can see why I am interested in your particular case because, allow me my opinion here, you might have unwittingly treated your infection with abx enough to have resolved most of your MS symptoms. And I am sure your natural approach to good health has certainly helped.

Lexy
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