candida MS- again

A forum for the discussion of antibiotics as a potential therapy for MS

candida MS- again

Postby mrhodes40 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:49 pm

I am writing this for the second time-little rant there- I hate to see that “error” message and lose hours of work! But this is worth sharing. Dr Wheldon alerted me that the "gliotoxin" of MS brains is not candida. here is proof of that.

Candida has been put forth as the cause of MS. This theory is popularized and supported on the net by such heavy hitters as Joseph Mercola whose popular alternative website has some of the highest net traffic among medical sites.

Here is the theory as it is put forth

From http://www.thecompounder.com/MSFungus.html

Gliotoxin is a heat stable chemical made by Aspergillus, Candida, and other species of fungi. (7). Not coincidentally, scientists have recovered a heat stable toxin from the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) of MS patients. In this particular study, they took the CSF from MS patients, heat-treated it to destroy any infectious germs, and then exposed it to nerve cells in a laboratory culture. What happened? The nerve cells died! They called this heat-stable toxin “gliotoxin.”
The source of gliotoxin appears to be, again, primarily from the yeast and fungi within the human body

So we have a book for sale that using references about various aspects of the idea assembles a whole new theory, and the mixture of referenced material and opinion makes it hard to see what is from scientists and what is pure speculation. I hope to iron this out here. The first flaw is in the first sentence; it is not true that the only "gliotoxin" is fungal in origin. Gliotoxin describes something toxic to nerves, like antibacterial describes something toxic to bacteria. Another flaw is in the last sentence. The perpetrator of the fungal/ms theory is the only one saying that it comes from yeast-that's his opinion, but itis presented as if the author of the study he is paraphrasing said that, and her absolutely DID NOT. I have it below..

In the thread “abx caused my MS and now I’m cured” a number of references were used to support the fungal/ms idea. I will use a couple of the same references to show there is a basic mistake.

As I said in that formerly mentioned thread, Dr Wheldon pointed out that the gliotoxin in MS brains and that in candida are different. Here I give you the proof so you can see it yourself
From here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_DocSum
Gliotoxin is a mycotoxin from the epipolythiodioxypipeazine family with biological active internal disulfide bridge

Two things: first, this is a seconday metabolite described in the chemical name you see there. It is not a protein-remember that part.

Second, this author is looking at candida gliotoxin as a possible therapeutic agent to suppress the immune system in organ transplants. This is a purified and concentrated dose of gliotoxin, not an amount created by a biologic infection. The author is not discussing the injury to brains in MS patients or offering that candida is damaging human bodies system wide as the fungal theory authors imply. The researchers point is that this gliotoxin is a chemical strategy used by candida to establish itself in local infections and that in concentrated forms it might have therapeutic potential as an immunosppressive agent.

From here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... s=10746946
Gliotoxin at 100 ng/ml did not show a cytotoxic effect


This citation talks about HOW MUCH purified gliotoxin it takes to cause these reported effects. To compare, Rifampin is effective at 25ng/ml. This is a lot of purified and concentrated gliotoxin to get concentrations of 100. There is a lot of interest in fungal gliotoxin as a potentially therapeutic agent and a lot of research on it. If you go to the link above and click"related links" you'll get a lot, and none of it suggests that candida infections in the body are generating enough gliotoxin to cause thee changes, and none of them are injecting mice with candida to test the results: IN EVERY CASE THEY ARE INJECTING PURE GLIOTOXIN.

From here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... ds=9304400

Gliotoxin belongs to the epipolythiodioxopiperazine class of secondary metabolites. And: The mode of action of gliotoxin appears to be via covalent interaction to proteins through mixed disulphide formation and gliotoxin has been shown to inhibit a number of thiol requiring enzymes


So, we have established here that candida gliotoxin is a secondary metabolite and it’s very long chemical name describes it and IT IS NOT A PROTEIN. Ask anyone who knows such chemistry. in a minute we'll prove that the one in the MS brain was a protein.

We have also established that there is an interest in developing a concentrated purified form of the gliotoxin that will possibly have therapeutic value in situations where you might want to suppress the immune system and that therefore there is a number of studies talking about the effects of these concentrated gliotoxins on mice in terms of immunity. These studies have been misused and put forth to support the assumption that gliotoxin caused in normal everyday candida dysbiosis and infections would cause the same effect, which is clearly not the case as the citation that talks about the levels of gliotoxin are measurable at the 100ng level.

Now to find the gliotoxin in MS brains. And handily another reference already used is useful for us too.
A cytotoxic factor for glial cells: a new avenue of research for multiple sclerosis?

Menard A, Paranhos-Baccala G, Pelletier J, Mandrand B, Seigneurin JM, Perron H, Reiger F.

INSERM, Laboratoire de Neuromodulations Interactives et Neuropathologies, Paris, France.

A novel retrovirus, provisionally called Multiple Sclerosis RetroVirus (MSRV), was recently described in multiple sclerosis (MS). We report here that monocyte/macrophage culture supernatants from MS patients containing reverse transcriptase activity secrete a cytotoxin which induces death of primary mouse cortical glial cells. This cytotoxin, which was also found in MS cerebrospinal fluid, specifically causes death of mouse immortalized astrocytes and oligodendrocytes in vitro and seems to be associated to MSRV-specific RNA. This toxic factor, called gliotoxin, is present only in active cases of MS and is a stable glycosylated protein of 17 kDa, in CSF as well as in monocyte/macrophage culture supernatants. Since this gliotoxin is highly toxic for glial cells, it may represent an initial pathogenic factor, leading to the neuropathological features of MS, like blood brain barrier disruption and demyelination.

PMID: 9359636 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Oh whoops! We do not see the same chemical gliotoxin here do we? This is a protein, furthermore it is only found in the cells that were expressing viral material.

This authors whole premise is that MS is a retrovirus and this retrovirus is creating a heat stable gliotoxin to maintain it's hold. As a note, the candida gliotoxin is in fact being investigated for it's antiviral qualities as mentioned in the earliler abstracts so even if you think this guy just didn't think of candida and missed it (which could NOT happen as yeast is large and easy to see even on a basic microscope, not cryptic) it still does not fit because it would inhibit any viruses there. ---In fact if you understand "candida gliotoxin" this way it might be presumed to be useful in MS to kill off viruses and bacteria, as well as to potentially suppress overactive immunity.

If I am to accept this fungal MS theory I must believe that the researcher who actually had the chutzpah and background to find and isolate a retroviral protein in an MS brain, and further had the insight to heat kill any viral material to check for gliotoxic factors, then isolated said gliotoxic factor describing it carefuly including it's size and what it was, then reported it in a peer reviewed journal was actually somehow too stupid to see it was in fact candida gliotoxin??? Come on!

All in all the authors of the fungal/MS theory, though they seem as if making a good theory because after all they did have references, are in fact way off base and misusing the material they reference through lack of diligence. To accuse Menard of seeing his novel MS gliotoxin (it's too bad he did not name it something else) and somehow missing the fact that it is candida gliotoxin is absurd, and folks who've been taken in by this theory simply have been fooled by people who only had half the story.

I hope this work here makes it easy to see the problem. It is clear that the MS gliotoxin is a 17 kd protein, and the candida gliotoxin is a secondary metabolite that could not possibly be mistaken for it, except by those who desperately want to "prove"a fallacy without checking carefully their facts. it's not at all hard to read medical research, it's harder to know what it means and that requires a background. Clearly the MS/candida folks did not have that background.

Dave, I believe you mean well and believe yourself cured of MS but the facts are the facts. Please go back to school and study chemistry, then actualy read the references these people list. It has a basic mistake in it and should not be advanced to others as if it is a good theory, or that it is possibly correct.

The leaky gut thing is another candida MS angle which I have not addressed here, but it is similarly full of lots of creative leaps and suppositions. While that angle may have some possibilities due to the fact that celiac patients do show some brain lesions some times and they obviously have a well understood leaky gut, the current level of understanding falls into the speculative arena and should not be presented as facts. There has never been a good peer reviewed research paper that finds candida associated with MS in direct research, though there've been lots of people with something to sell advancing such an idea through sheer creative thinking
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Postby SarahLonglands » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:54 am

Marie, what an excellently put together piece! I read the book review in "The Compounder" and was a bit surprised that they had used it. I have never seen such strange list of references, to start with. Four out of eighteen references are from Joseph Mercola, for goodness sake.

I don't eat smoked sausage, but I must eat smoked salmon nearly every week. I somehow don't think I'll change that habit.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:11 am

I agree that the reference list is extremely weak. One of my favorite things to do when looking into someone's novel theory about what causes MS is to actually read all their references related to the idea. Usually It seems some real creativity has taken place in interpreting the material-UNLESS the theory in question is a peer reviewed paper found on pubmed or some such. the peer reciew process catches that kind of thing before it gets to print, so a theory that makes it into peer reviewed print, such as
this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum

is something that while still not proven is far more well supported as a possibility in MS than are these alternative theories that are simply put out for public consumption. Science is a back and forth process, so we will see material on both sides of an issue even once it is published, but the fungal theory would not even get peer review because it would not be accepted for review. The errors are to egregious and it cannot possibly be correct, so it would be rejected immediately.

Once we start to see work all over the world associating candida infections with MS-and yes MS happens all over the world and there is active research in every country into it including countries that treat using more alternative approaches like Germany -then we could begin to believe that there may be something to it.

But I want to reiterate that yeast is a fairly large and distinct organism; it would not, could not, be missed in the brain. In a person's first bioogy class you will see and study this stuff. It is easy to culture, easy to see, easy to stain, and really big. It is perfect for clumsy young biology students to work on.

The only way I could see there being a relationship between candida and MS is through the leaky gut theory, and that is essentially a molecular mimicry theory. The problem with that one is according to my neurologist that all human beings , MS patients or normal, have self reactive cells outside of the BBB, the question has always been how do these molecuar mimics get into the brain, what opens the BBB for them? some other process is going on...presence of molecular mimics is not equivalent to an MS dignosis. That's why we do not have a blood test for MS-if we could just look at blood for a myelin reactive cell and if you have it you have MS and if not well you don't it would simplify diagnosis, but that does not work.

IMHO if a person wants to use anticandida products because they think it helps them and the approach they use is safe then of course they should do that, but it is irresponsible to pretend this is proven or fool people into thinking that it is supported by currently available research. It is not
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Postby SarahLonglands » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:34 am

Now that is a good paper, only published last year.

Of course, if you have a systemic problem with yeast, you need to treat it, whilst remembering that this is in no way going to cure your MS, for the reasons you state above. It might make it feel better for a while, that is all, in the way that getting rid of constipation or a toothache will make you feel better.

I feel in a rather wicked mood today, so I am having to sit on my hands to stop myself posting that fungus on the brain picture I sent you. so I'd better get back to my painting......Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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