why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

A forum for the discussion of antibiotics as a potential therapy for MS
SarahLonglands
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by SarahLonglands »

Also, as far as I am aware, Sriram has not yet had a trial involving metronidazole, probably because it would take too long for the university authorities. He does use it for individual people, though. They both se the need for clinical trials, but Lib, these are not so easy and inexpensive as you seem to assume. Also they tend to be only for rrms people and they have any other available treatments which they obviously will go for, so it isn't easy to find the required number of people.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Liberation
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

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Liberation
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

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CuriousRobot
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by CuriousRobot »

Liberation wrote: How to customize?
David Wheldon wrote: A schedule of treatment:
[...] when these are well tolerated, the dose of Doxycycline is increased to 200mg daily. The reason for this slow, step-wise introduction of antichlamydials is to minimize any reactions caused by bacterial die-off. These can be unpleasant;
[...] in rapidly progressive MS it may be prudent to offset the benefits of stopping progression against the risk of reactions, giving full doses of azithromycin and doxicycline from the beginning;
[...] when metronidazole is well tolerated the period of administration in each cycle is increased to five days. There is no reason for the intermittent use of metronidazole other than acceptability: if someone undergoing treatment is able to take longer cycles of metronidazole then it seems reasonable that they should do so;
[...] if it is suspected that a patient may have a heavy chlamydial load a smaller daily dose may be given initially;
[...] after several months the intervals between the antibiotics may be cautiously extended. Rifampicin is not suitable for intermittent use, and azithromycin may be given instead;
[...] here is a graphic representation of a possible course of treatment. The details will vary according to suspected bacterial load;
http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/ms-treatment1.html
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Liberation
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

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Liberation
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

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CuriousRobot
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by CuriousRobot »

Liberation wrote:The tetracycline antibiotics, including minocycline and doxycycline, have immunomodulatory and neuroprotective activities. They appear to decrease the passage of leukocytes across the blood-brain barrier. An earlier trial of Copaxone plus minocycline showed favorable MRI data.
Wheldon talks about this as well (the interpretation of disease attenuation after administration of antibiotics), here:
David Wheldon wrote:The possible development of antibiotic resistance in Chlamydia pneumoniae
[...] f) There is some evidence that the active reticular body of chlamydiae can spread directly from one host cell to to adjacent cells, possibly by exploiting lipid raft microdomains in the host cell membrane. The transmigration of C. pneumoniae from peripheral blood monocytes to endothelial cells has been described [Rupp J, Koch M, van Zandbergen G, et al., Transmission of Chlamydia pneumoniae infection from blood monocytes to vascular cells in a novel transendothelial migration model. FEMS Microbiol Lett. 2005 Jan 15;242(2):203-8.] (This, incidentally, is the likely mechanism of the vasculitis often seen at the centre of a recent MS lesion.) Transmigration is an active process and one would not expect it to take place in the presence of protein synthesis inhibitors. The cessation of gadolinium leakage in the presence of minocycline provides evidence for this [Metz LM, Zhang Y, Yeung M, et al., Minocycline reduces gadolinium-enhancing magnetic resonance imaging lesions in multiple sclerosis. Ann Neurol. 2004 May;55(5):756.] though these authors believe that minocycline works by acting as an immunomodulator.
http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/resistance.html
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Liberation
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

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agatha
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by agatha »

Have just seen this - as Sarah said many of us have done the abx and are now getting on with our lives instead of hanging around on MS forums. It's wonderful! Dr Wheldon kindly treated me and I have now been off the protocol for quite a while and doing really well. Old damage still flares a little when I get a new infection but nothing new for ages. Previously i was rapidly going down the pan.

I think there was definitely an infective aspect for me - before treatment I had felt cold and shivery for many years - as if my body were trying to fight an infection. After treatment I no longer feel shivery. Did I remember to say it's wonderful!
SarahLonglands
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by SarahLonglands »

Hello Agatha: so nice to hear from you. Or should I say it is wonderful!
It is very nearly ten years now that I was given the SPMS diagnosis and David was told quietly that it would only be a few months before he needed to find a nursing home for me. After he unearthed the Vanderbilt protocol and started a rather disbelieving me on it, resulting in my vast improvement, I could have just quietly got on with my life then, but I wouldn’t have been happy doing so, when there were so many other people who might benefit. Maybe I should have kept quiet though, because I had no idea of how long such research takes and how difficult it would be to change people’s auto-immune mindsets.
No, I’m glad David and I spoke out because people like you would have just continued to fall off the radar.
Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
SarahLonglands
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Re: why do antibiotics and immunosupressing both work?

Post by SarahLonglands »

Liberation wrote:I just heard from doctor yesterday that in Germany, they showed, again in mice, that gut bacteria are indeed involved in triggering the reaction that causes the body’s immune system to turn against certain nerve cells.

Could it be that CAP is working for a different reasons, not because of CPn but bad gut bacteria?
Maybe, Lib, you should be looking into finding someone like Borodi willing to do a faecal gut transplant, since you seem unwilling to believe anything I might say about probiotics and the time it takes some people to show some improvement.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Re: why do antibiotics and immunosupressing both work?

Post by Gogo »

Anecdote wrote:
since you seem unwilling to believe anything I might say about probiotics and the time it takes some people to show some improvement.

Sarah
Anecdote, I am joining Lib and those who have reservations about the effectiveness of probiotics pills. :) One thing is for sure, if you take real abx (not the fake ones) for years that will ruin your gut flora. I have doubts how much you can balance that with probiotics. First, probiotics are not controlled by FDA, so you do not know what you take. Several studies already indicated that many statements about different probiotics brands are not true. Second, probiotics just contain couple of strains, while our gut contains plenty. We do not even know exactly what are the roles of different bacterias inside us. We do not even know what diseases might be attributed to bad gut flora.

Of course, if someone has MS she might take the chance, but as I said many times not much to support the abx use in MS.
SarahLonglands
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by SarahLonglands »

Probiotics: for much of the time on antibiotics I just took live yoghurt as a probiotic. I don't really want to subject myself to something like a colonoscopy, but I really do have no trouble with my gut: I defecate regularly once a day and never have constipation, or diarrhoea unless I have eaten something iffy.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Re: why do antibiotics and immonsupressing both work?

Post by Loriyas »

Geeze Gogo, what do you want? This continuous bashing of the antibiotic therapy (and of Sarah) is growing tiresome. Not every therapy works for every patient. But a patient should have the opportunity to try whatever therapy they deem appropriate. There is a ton of research available for someone to make an intelligent decision on whether this therapy is the right one for them or not. You obviously have chosen not to give it a try for yourself. Good for you! But others may decide it is right for them. Good for them! But stop with the scare tactics.
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Re: why do antibiotics and immunosupressing both work?

Post by MacKintosh »

Gogo wrote:
Anecdote, I am joining Lib and those who have reservations about the effectiveness of probiotics pills. :) One thing is for sure, if you take real abx (not the fake ones) for years that will ruin your gut flora. I have doubts how much you can balance that with probiotics. First, probiotics are not controlled by FDA, so you do not know what you take. Several studies already indicated that many statements about different probiotics brands are not true. Second, probiotics just contain couple of strains, while our gut contains plenty. We do not even know exactly what are the roles of different bacterias inside us. We do not even know what diseases might be attributed to bad gut flora.

Of course, if someone has MS she might take the chance, but as I said many times not much to support the abx use in MS.
Gogo, I took antibiotics for six years. I was sporadic, at best, in taking probiotics and I hate yoghurt, so I don't eat it. Anyway, I did NOT destroy my gut flora. I did NOT damage my systems. I have been overseen by a physician throughout my treatment and I was tested several times.

The antibiotics did NOT harm me, but DID cause my recovery from dozens of MS symptoms and my brain no longer shows angry white spots. Please stop trying to scare people about the long-term effects of antibiotics, because it's just not the case.

I agree with Loriyas. It's obvious you don't intend to pursue the antibiotic protocol, which is fine. But to make smug pronouncements that it is detrimental, relying only on 'word of mouth' and old wives' tales, is irresponsible.
The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi
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