NAC bad for the heart

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NAC bad for the heart

Postby gwa » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:42 am

This article discusses how NAC can be detrimental to hearts.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/81503.php

A Type Of Antioxidant May Not Be As Safe As Once Thought
05 Sep 2007

Certain preparations taken to enhance athletic performance or stave off disease contain an antioxidant that could cause harm. According to new research at the University of Virginia Health System, N-acetylcysteine (NAC), an antioxidant commonly used in nutritional and body building supplements, can form a red blood cell derived molecule that makes blood vessels think they are not getting enough oxygen. This leads to pulmonary arterial hypertension.

"NAC fools the body into thinking that it has an oxygen shortage," said Dr. Ben Gaston, UVa Children's Hospital pediatrician and researcher who led the study. "We found that an NAC product formed by red blood cells, know as a nitrosothiol, bypasses the normal regulation of oxygen sensing. It tells the arteries in the lung to 'remodel'; they become narrow, increasing the blood pressure in the lungs and causing the right side of the heart to swell."

Gaston notes that this is an entirely new understanding of the way oxygen is sensed by the body. The body respond to nitrosothiols, which are made when a decreased amount of oxygen is being carried by red blood cells; the response is not to the amount of oxygen dissolved in blood. He says that this pathway was designed much more elegantly than anyone had previously imagined. "We were really surprised", he said.

The research team administered both NAC and nitrosothiols to mice for three weeks. The NAC was converted by red blood cells into the nitrosothiol, S-nitroso-N-acetylcysteine (SNOAC). The normal mice that received NAC and SNOAC developed PAH. Mice missing an enzyme known as endothelial nitric oxide synthase did not convert NAC to SNOAC, and were protected from the adverse effects of NAC, but not SNOAC. This suggests that NAC must be converted to SNOAC to cause PAH.

Could regular use of NAC produce the same effects in humans? The next step is to determine a threshold past which antioxidant use becomes detrimental to heart or lung function, according to Dr. Lisa Palmer, co-researcher of the study.

"The more we understand about complexities in humans, the more we need to be aware of chemical reactions in the body," said Palmer.

According to Gaston and Palmer, NAC is being tested in clinical trials for patients with cystic fibrosis as well as other conditions; and clinical trials with nitrosothiols are being planned. These results, Palmer says, should motivate researchers to check their patients for PAH.

The results also open up a range of possibilities in treating PAH. Palmer added that the signaling process could be restorative and healing if they figured out how to keep NAC from fooling the body.

"From here we could devise new ways for sensing hypoxia or we could in theory modify signaling to treat PAH," Palmer said.

University of Virginia Health System
PO Box 800795
Charlottesville, VA 22908-0795
United States
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Postby SarahLonglands » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:22 am

Well, I got this response from David, who was taking abx for pulmonary reasons and is still downing NAC every day:

I'd take this with a pinch of salt for the following reasons. There have been literally hundreds of animal studies (mostly rats and mice) with NAC; Pulmonary Hypertension (PH) has never been reported. One such is this: [Arfsten D, Johnson E, Thitoff A et al., Impact of 30-day oral dosing with N-acetyl-L-cysteine on Sprague-Dawley rat physiology. Int J Toxicol. 2004 Jul-Aug; 23(4): 239-47.] The doses used were huge; by weight they were 50 times greater than that recommended as a dietary supplement. In fact, NAC was found to protect rats from hypoxia-induced PH [Hoshikawa Y, Ono S, Suzuki S, et al., Generation of oxidative stress contributes to the development of pulmonary hypertension induced by hypoxia. J Appl Physiol. 2001 Apr;90(4):1299-306.] This protectective effect in PH was confirmed by another group [Lachmanova V, Hnilickova O, Povysilova V, et al., N-acetylcysteine inhibits hypoxic pulmonary hypertension most effectively in the initial phase of chronic hypoxia. Life Sci. 2005 May 27;77(2): 175-82.] Also, NAC is used extensively by athletes for long periods; there are no reports of PH. Indeed, NAC is a very commonly used supplement, and there have never been any reports of PH. Further, NAC has been used as a sputum thinner for long periods in persons with cystic fibrosis and chronic bronchitis, again without any reports of PH. I shall still be taking it.

No need to worry, I think!
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby gwa » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:15 pm

anecdote,

Thanks for the quick response. Our lives would be a lot simpler if the rats and mice would just suddenly vanish from the planet.

I had ordered 4 bottles of NAC which should be in tomorrow, so your post keeps the pills out of the garbage now.

gwa
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Postby SarahLonglands » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:15 pm

And pigeons, but that's another story! Sarah :wink:
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby raeindigo » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:17 am

i had been taking nac for about one month now, and in the last week, my heart rate has been racing in very scary way. i have never experienced this feeling before. it also seems to be a latent response. i hadn't read anything in all the online information listing side effects.

tonight i did a search on nac and heart irregularities, and i think i found the reason for my troubles.

other than the addition of nac, and a bit more vitamin c, there have been no other changes to my life.

i think this may be one of those supplements that can effect people differently. i also have a very clean diet, and i think it makes my system more sensitive overall.

i recommend caution when using this product. i'm a little freaked right now.
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Postby MacKintosh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:40 am

Raeindigo, A number of people, including myself, have reported racing heartbeat when starting NAC and/or antibiotics. My personal opinion is the medicines target the areas which are infected with cpn bacteria. If that muscle happens to be the heart, it is targeted and you feel a reaction there. Once the infection has been taken down, the racing heartbeat diminishes and disappears.

A lot of the perceived 'negative side effects' of NAC, Vitamin D, antibiotics, etc, are probably due to their ability to kill off the bacteria. The subsequent die-off and toxins released will make you feel crummy, so the medical field notes these as 'negative reactions'. Funny, but once you get past the intial phases of cpn treatment, those 'negative reactions' go away.
The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi
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Postby MacKintosh » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:42 am

Raeindigo, Also, as an aside, please read Anecdote's comment above, saying she 'got this information from David'. She is referring to Dr. David Wheldon, whose protocol most of us follow. He is her husband.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:54 am

Raeindigo, my husband, who is a medical doctor suffered from PAH before he started the protocol, used by people in this thread for MS caused by chlamydia pneumoniae, also now known to cause many other diseases, arterial disease included. He used to have very high blood pressure and I could often feel and even hear it racing at night, when everything was quiet. Now, though, it is as hard to find his pulse as that of a young child, or mine.

Of course, I am assuming that you aren't taking more than 50 times the amount recommended as a dietary supplement.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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NAC and PAH

Postby moby » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:36 pm

Hello, I saw the posts above regarding NAC and PAH and wanted to put my two cents out there: I've been taking 600mg NAC twice a day for almost a year now. I started taking it for mood (a recent study showed some efficacy in reducing chronic low mood in bipolars). It helped my mood considerably (the only thing that has). However, I recently started seeing a cardiologist because of palpitations that started last year. An echocardiogram showed Tricuspid Regurgitation, which is most likely caused by Pulimonary Arterial Hypertension (PAH).
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Postby notasperfectasyou » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:28 pm

Do a search here on Schipper, I think that is the Drs name. Kim started taking 5gm NAC in 2006. seems to be helping her, sometimes I wonder if it real helped get her ready for abx. Ken
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Postby SarahLonglands » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:11 am

raeindigo, if you are freaked, then stop taking NAC and see if your heart stops racing. If it does, start it again and see if the problem comes back, so stop taking it.

I have taken at least 2000mg of NAC every day for the last five years and I have never suffered from pulmonary hypertension, but maybe some people are more susceptible. Read my husband's earlier posting: he is a medical doctor who suffered from hypertension and took NAC as part of the cure.

That's my two pence worth and a penny is worth more than a cent.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby MacKintosh » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:54 am

WHen cpn is being killed, and NAC has a kill-effect on cpn, some patients have noticed 'racing' heartbeats. It has also gone away, as the abx patients have improved on combined antibiotic treatment.

This makes sense, as the heart is only a muscle and muscles can be invaded by cpn as can any other organ. You sound like a PRIME candidate for combined antibiotic therapy!
The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems. Mohandas Gandhi
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Postby agatha » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:24 am

I also experienced a racing heartbeat for a few days shortly after starting NAC - I assumed it was a die-off reaction and it went away. I later had a similar short term reaction shortly after starting doxycycline and azithromycin - again it disappeared within a day or two (unlike some of the other flu-like reactions).
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Re: NAC bad for the heart

Postby driverd » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:12 am

This drug is pure evil.
I have already taken NAC several times up to 800mg at once and it was fine.
But yesterday I took 700mg and I had the worst horror story of my life, 1 hour after intake it started :
- heart beating at +120bpm
- extreme hypertension (the heart was pumping so hard I could feel it)
- cold chills that made me shake
- total insomnia (didnt sleep or was tired for over 40h straight)
- manual breathing, I had to breath by myself or else th heart was going even faster
- alkalosis, I was trying drinking coke to bring some acid and it didnt even help!
- shortness of breath

All that at its highest point during 20 hours.
I tried everything without success, I took :
- 3 benzos
- tons of magnesium
- multivitamins ( I thought NAC depleted something)
- Ginkgo biloba (to bring oxygen)
- an anticholinergic, as I couldnt breath normally I thought I had bronchoconstriction (NAC causes that, I'm not asthmatic but my sister is so who knows)
I took also a preparation given for hangovers that speeds up liver processing (I'm a slow acetylator!), didn't help.

At 8PM I called a doctor who came over my house at 9PM, I was checked with indeed a massive heart rate and she gave me 0.25mg .
I went to bed at 10PM, it was still beating extremely fast, xanax didnt help it only made me yawn a bit.
However I noticed that my tinnitus was exacerbated and I immediatly took it was excess glutmamate.
I took 4g taurine and 9mg melatonin to iniate sleep.
2h later I woke up with the heart still beating very fast.
I took melatonin again and taurine and 500mg bacopa.
Back to sleep again, I woke up again 2 hours after. Heart still very fast but hypertension gone, it was much more easy to sleep.
Then I took melatonin again (1.5mg because I think lower doses work better).
I woke up 1 hour ago at 7AM, thank God my heart decreased significantly, from 125bpm at 10PM to 85bpm at 7AM.
I am still waiting for the benzo and the bacopa to wear off to see if its really going down.
Now its going better, it's still a bit difficult to sleep again but its better now.
I hope it goes down again because I nearly had to go to the ER.

I don't know if that nitrosothiol mechanism is behind that, I guess it.
I don't understand why I had that because I already took NAC and it never did such a crazy thing.
Sadly I guess I will throw that to the trash, I don't want this to start again.
I guess NAC also caused high glutamate (because of exacerbated tinnitus) and this brought a lots of symptoms. ( that's why I took melatonin, taurine and bacopa who fight against glutamate).

I hope this never happen again, and seriously it happenef the 1st january, what a really bad start for this new year!
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Re: NAC bad for the heart

Postby SarahLonglands » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:34 am

A very bad start to the new year but are you sure it was NAC and not something else you wee taking? Or might it have been a bad batch|: where did you get it from? I say this because I take 1000mg a day and have done for several years. I have no problems with it.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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