The biotin trial results are out

Biotin is an emerging therapy for the treatment of secondary progressive MS.

Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby DrGeoff » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:33 pm

Well, I can say for sure that 100% pure Biotin is water-soluble. And, it does not need warm water to dissolve.
I use 20oz/500ml bottles with the "sports cap", which are stored in the kitchen.
Each evening I measure 300mg (maybe + 1 or 2 mg) remove the bottle cap, and tip the measured Biotin in.
Over the next 4-5 minutes the Biotin sinks to the bottom of the bottle, and is half dissolved by the time it gets there.
The bottle is then inverted a few times, and left to stand overnight.
In the morning it will be inverted couple of times, observed to make sure that no particles remain undissolved, and then I take a pull on it regularly thru the day.
By the evening, there is just enough left to wash down the regular medication.
Geoff
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby Music » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:07 pm

Thanks!

My chiropractor told me yesterday that Biotin was water soluble. Just wanted another opinion from someone here as I had read elsewhere that it was.

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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby NHE » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:00 pm

According to Sigma-Aldrich, the water solubility is 0.2 mg/mL.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/pro ... rodRecCold

20 fl. oz. is 591.5 mL. Thus, 118.3 mg of biotin should dissolve. This is less than half of the 300 mg which raises some interesting questions. Either Sigma has misreported the solubility, or perhaps there's something different about the bulk biotin.

Other sites report similar water solubility for biotin...

22 mg/100 mL = 0.22 mg/mL
http://www4.mpbio.com/ecom/docs/proddat ... %29/194634

220 mg/L = 0.22 mg/mL
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compoun ... ting-Point

0.2 mg/mL
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalPro ... 271542.htm

:confused:
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby ElliotB » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:11 pm

The Biotin does not have to completely dissolved, it just needs to be suspended in the water so you can easily swallow it with the liquid. Biotin is a very fine power and easily mixes with water.
Last edited by ElliotB on Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby NHE » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:10 am

ElliotB wrote:The Biotin does not have to completely dissolve, it just needs to be suspended in the water so you can easily swallow it with the liquid. Biotin is a very fine power and easily mixes with water.

Yes, it's probably a colloidal solution of suspended particles. This can be easily confirmed by shining a laser pointer through the solution. If you can see the laser line going through the solution, then it confirms the colloidal properties. This is known as the Tyndall Effect.
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby DrGeoff » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:05 pm

I had never come across Tyndall scattering, so I reached for my laser pointer - and the batteries were dead!
So I got out my backup pointer - and the batteries were dead on that one as well!
Cut to the chase - new batteries, and there is no difference between a bottle of spring water, and a bottle of the same water containing 300mg of Biotin.
This argues that I have a solution, not a suspension. Against that, ElliotB's point does have a certain feel of "rightness".
However, none of the values for Biotin solubility, that I can find, specify the temperature of the water. I have seen a statement that Biotin will NOT dissolve in room temperature water, but that the water must be WARM. In logic, the temperature must play a part.
I guess that until I find a reason to change, I will stick to my current routine.
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby ElliotB » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Whether the Biotin dissolves is, IMHO, irrelevant. You just need to consume it one way or another.
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby DrGeoff » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:48 am

Exactly!
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby HappyPoet » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:28 am

Some laboratory tests may potentially be distorted by CERENDAY®
These are tests that require the use of a biotin-based reagent such as some immunoassays (see list of parameters below) and tissue pathology examinations. Depending on the method used, results can be falsely low / negative (e.g. sandwich immunoassays) or falsely high / positive (e.g. competitive immunoassays).

http://medday-lab.com/


For those on Facebook: "Biotin for Progressive MS" 2,859 members LOTS of info here, including patient reports/updates. Some TiMS' members belong to the group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/BiotinForProgressiveMS/
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby NHE » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:51 pm

HappyPoet wrote:Some laboratory tests may potentially be distorted by CERENDAY®
These are tests that require the use of a biotin-based reagent such as some immunoassays (see list of parameters below) and tissue pathology examinations. Depending on the method used, results can be falsely low / negative (e.g. sandwich immunoassays) or falsely high / positive (e.g. competitive immunoassays).

http://medday-lab.com/


That's great info! Thanks!
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby Anunymouse » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:16 pm

Don't see a reason to be concerned if it's mostly dissolved, totally, or not at all. In pill form, it's not dissolved at all when you take it. It just whether or not its in your body that's important. Being 'water soluble' basically is just important in that it doesn't store in your body fat like other vitamins do, and excess gets excreted pretty quickly. Vitamins that are stored in your fat (D3 for example) can build up to toxic levels eventually and much easier.

It does fwiw dissolve completely at room temp. Just not immediately. Give it a minute and a couple shakes of the bottle and its gone IME. The stuff I made last night went in the fridge for this morning. Completely dissolved as far as I can tell in cold water. It probably just took longer. Creatine, which I've been using off an on for a couple decades is also water soluble. Eventually. If you have no patience you drink wet sand, no big deal. If you have no patience and don't want to drink wet sand, you buy it in pill form. It still digests the same.
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby DrGeoff » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:22 am

After NHE brought up the Tyndall Effect, I got to playing with a laser.
I think what happens is that the water dissolves as much Biotin as it can - so that we have a saturated solution of Biotin - and the remainder is then a suspension in that solution.
To all appearances, my 300mg had dissolved totally at room temperature. A laser in a darkened room showed a very faint trace - implying a suspension.
But, to paraphrase ElliotB, does it matter as long as you get the right dose?

As for the effect of hi-dose Biotin on blood tests, I have found this reported as far back as August. The link to Medday does not work for me, and I certainly want more data on this. There is another potential affect I would like to see nailed down - does Biotin affect the "dip-test" used as a first screen for a UTI? This could potentially affect a lot of people with MS.

Geoff
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby HappyPoet » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:56 am

THIS INFORMATION IS ADDRESSED TO HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS WHO TAKE CARE OF PATIENTS TREATED WITH CERENDAY®
(BIOTIN 100 mg, capsule).

WARNING
Some laboratory tests may potentially be distorted by CERENDAY®.
These are tests that require the use of a biotin-based reagent such as some immunoassays (see list of parameters below) and tissue pathology examinations.Depending on the method used, results can be falsely low / negative (e.g. sandwich immunoassays) or falsely high / positive (e.g. competitive immunoassays).


Learn more about biotin interference with :
Sandwich Immunoassays Competitive Immunoassays
You prescribe/take/analyze a sample for a laboratory test OR you interpret a lab test result:
Check with the laboratory if biotin interferes with the assay method used.

If no technical option can be found, treatment can be interrupted so as to obtain circulating biotin level compatible with the tests to be performed.

LIST OF PARAMETERS POTENTIALLY AFFECTED (non-exhaustive)

• ANAEMIA
EPO
Ferritin
Folate
Vitamin B12

• CARDIOLOGY
BNP
CK-MB
D-Dimer
Myoglobin
NT-proBNP
Troponin I
Troponin T

• HORMONES / FERTILITY
ACTH
AMH
Androstenedione
Cortisol
C-Peptide
DHEA-s
Estradiol
Estriol, unconj.
FSH, LH
HbA1c
HCG
hGH
IGF-1
IGFBP-3
Inhibin A
Insulin
PAPP-A
PlGF
Progesterone
Prolactin
SHBG
Testosterone

• THYROID
Anti TG
Anti TPO
Anti-TSHr
Calcitonin
T3, FT3
T4, FT4
TBG
Tg
TSH
T-Uptake

• INFECTIOUS
Ag HBe
Ag HBs
Anti-HAV
Anti-HBc
Anti-HBc IgM
Anti-Hbe
Anti-HBs
Anti-HCV 2
Anti-HIV 1/2
C. Difficile Toxin A&B
CMV IgG, IgM
H. Pylori IgG
Herpes I & II IgG
HIV Ag p24
HIV Ag Confirm.
HIV Combo
HSV-1/2 IgG
Rubella IgG, IgM
Syphilis
Toxo Avidity
Toxo IgG, IgM

• THERAPEUTIC DRUGS
Carbamazepine
Ciclosporine
Digitoxine
Digoxine
Gentamicin
Lidocaine
Lithium
Mycophenolate
Phenobarbital
Phenytoin
Procainamide
Sirolimus
Sodium Valproate
Tacrolimus
Theophylline
Tobramycin
Vancomycine

• BONE METABOLISM
Anti-CCP
Beta cross Laps
Osteocalcin
PTH
P1NP
Pyrilinks-D
Vitamin D

• ONCOLOGY
ACE
AFP
β-microglobuline
BR 27.29
CA 125
CA 15-3
CA 19.9
CA 72-4
Cyfra 21-1
HE4
HER-2/neu
Gastrin
NSE
PAP
ProGRP
PSA
S100
sFlt-1
TPS

• SEPSIS / INFLAMMATION
C1 inhibitor
C3, C4
CRP
IgA, IgE, IgG, IgM
IL6, IL8, IL10
LBP
Prealbumin
Procalcitonin
TNF-α
Transferrin

• LIVER FIBROSIS
Hyaluronic acid (HA)
PIIINP
TIMP-1

• DRUGS OF ABUSE/ TOXICOLOGY
6-Acetylmorphine (6-AM)
Acetaminophen
Amphetamines
Barbiturates
Benzodiazepines
Caffeine
Cannabinoids (THC)
Cocaine Metabolite
Ecstasy
Methadone
Methadone Metabolites, EDPP
Methaqualone
Methotrexate
Opiates
Phencyclidine
Propoxyphene
Salicylate
Tricyclic Antidepressants

For further information, contact us at contact@medday-pharma.com | Legal mentions: EN - FR
Last update: 05/07/2015
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby DrGeoff » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:56 am

And buried in the middle of that long, long, list was the one I was worried about - PSA.
This is for Prostate Specific Antigen.
An annoying test in that a positive result can mean more than one thing. An enlarged prostate, prostate cancer, or both. It is known that the test can be skewed by a UTI. i am in the middle of an investigation in this area and the next step but one may well involve a blood test for PSA (depends on a dip for UTI) so I shall have to to quit Biotin a couple of days before.
Thanks Poet.

Geoff
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Re: The biotin trial results are out

Postby NHE » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:42 pm

DrGeoff wrote:And buried in the middle of that long, long, list was the one I was worried about - PSA.
This is for Prostate Specific Antigen.
An annoying test in that a positive result can mean more than one thing. An enlarged prostate, prostate cancer, or both. It is known that the test can be skewed by a UTI. i am in the middle of an investigation in this area and the next step but one may well involve a blood test for PSA (depends on a dip for UTI) so I shall have to to quit Biotin a couple of days before.


It might be helpful to know what type of test is used in order to know if the potential interference might raise or lower the results.

Sandwich Assays (falsely low values)
http://medday-lab.com/sandwishAssays.html

Competitive Binding Assays (falsely high values)
http://medday-lab.com/competitiveAssays.html
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