RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WEEKSP

Biotin is an emerging therapy for the treatment of secondary progressive MS.

RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WEEKSP

Postby seeva » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:51 am

DEAR FRIENDS A real story of a man called MARK GELMAN walking 3weeks on BIOTIN
Please watch his vedio on his experiences
go to your Facebook and type biotin for progressivem.s
you will find he is talking in one vedio and walking in two others. also lots of informations mspeople asked and reply
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BiotinForProgressiveMS/
regards
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby CureOrBust » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:12 am

I am not a member of facebook.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby ElliotB » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:34 am

I am a firm believer in supplements and am taking biotin, and have been for several years, and in high doses for the last few months.

The mind is a very powerful thing. It is likely that his walking is not a direct result of the Biotin (the placebo effect is possibly a major factor).
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby DrGeoff » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:32 am

I'm not a Facebook member either, but I have a friend who is.
He tells me that the video link given is "unavailable", and so is the "Biotin for progressive MS" group.
For most people here the information is useless.
Since the Med-day trial results suggest that the effects start to show between 3 and 9 months, I am somewhat sceptical about a man walking after only three weeks.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby 1eye » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:46 pm

DrGeoff wrote:I'm not a Facebook member either, but I have a friend who is.
He tells me that the video link given is "unavailable", and so is the "Biotin for progressive MS" group.
For most people here the information is useless.
Since the Med-day trial results suggest that the effects start to show between 3 and 9 months, I am somewhat sceptical about a man walking after only three weeks.
Geoff


I agree. Neither am I face-literate, but I have been trying to cope with my friend's misdirection by it:

******************************************************************************************
Yes, it can be bad if you want to take 30 a day. I would not give that much lactose or cellulose to a horse. Lactose is a protein, and aside from the hullabaloo about tolerance, that much might do in your kidneys. I was taking a time-release vitamin C which I blamed for 1 of my several bouts of kidney stones. People liken it to childbirth, but I had one doc say he'd seen a very small stone take down a very big man.

Don't say I didn't warn you. Biotin is probably also some kind of protein, but my body somehow has tolerated it so far. I'm going in for a kidney enzyme test Monday.

See this stuff is produced by gut bacteria, and they don't know what happens if you can't make any, but I have my suspicions about it helping digestion.

> the biotin from amazon is in tablet form. think 30 a day will still be bad?
>>
>> You don't want less than 300mg per day, or that much filler. Don't bother. Compounding pharmacists don't like working without a prescription. Even if you buy pre-compounded from Skip's Pharmacy in Florida, (he sells the same biotin used in the French trial) he likes prescriptions. Something about liabilty...
>>
>> Don't take 30 a day of anything. You'd be consuming too much filler (cellulose or lactose) and too much gelatin.
>>
>> Skip is probably cheaper than Ottawa compounders if you can get a prescription. Your mileage may vary. Not responsible.
>>
>> I bought 250 grams for I forget, probably 800 bucks $US. You don't want more than that because the shelf life is 2 years.
>>
>> It will last me that long, which is twice as long as the trial.
>>
>> They are probably delaying the market to give people a chance to buy 2 years' worth of useless, harmful DMDs for $50,000 a year $US.
>>
>> It sounds complicated, but my PSW and I had fun playing drug dealer, compounding 100 of them, one afternoon about a month ago.
>>
>> (Kanata Buyers' Club) :?
>>
>>> I just found Biotin 10,000mcg (10mg) 100 tabs for 19.99 at amazon. so if I buy 5 containers and take 30 a day it will last me 16 days at a cost of approx 100bucks. so 200 bucks if I did that for one month! Anyways, what is your cost doing it the way you told me? I am thinking of trying 200 mg a day for a month to see if any benefit and lessen the cost. What do ya think?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Re Biotin:
>>>>
>>>> Not a cure, but I have seen very gradual improvement. Can do 30+ sit-to-stands and get on and off tricycle by myself...
>>>>
>>>> The thread:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.thisisms.com/forum/chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic26705.html
>>>>
>>>> contains my words on that score. It also contains some of my pictures and music.
>>>>
>>>> If worried about product from China, buy North American. I got my capsule machine from china and it works but only for 00 size capsules. I would advise that size anyway because they handle easier and there`s lots of room for filler. To be really precise with filler you may need to find out the powder density of both biotin and filler, and calculate based on the ratio you use in your mix. I have not done this myself yet. The procedure I followed was to fill caps with the spreader tool to the top of the long half, with no tamping. This results in too much biotin, so my next batch I will try to get some cellulose filler. I have not had any ill effects from using up to 500mg of biotin per day for about 2 months now.
>>>>
>>>> Also see http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic26870.html
******************************************************************************************
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby ElliotB » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:07 am

Bulk pharmaceutical grade biotin is about $20 per month for 300mg/day (powder form taken suspended in water) and is a much better alternative to pills with filler which is costly and requires consuming large amounts of unwanted filler(s) on a daily basis.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby CureOrBust » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:16 am

ElliotB wrote:Bulk pharmaceutical grade biotin is about $20 per month for 300mg/day (powder form taken suspended in water) and is a much better alternative to pills with filler which is costly and requires consuming large amounts of unwanted filler(s) on a daily basis.
The above statement is very misleading. If you make the capsules yourself, you are in control of what you use for filler, and as such, you can actually use other powders you wish to add to your intake; for example, my morning dose also has sulbutiamine and picamilon and also a small dose of Sunifram with Creatine Monohydrate as filler (just happen to have a tub available and its pretty inert at the dose used). Also, if the capsules are compounded by a pharmacy, their fillers are normally very safe. Avicel (a plant fibre?) or calcium carbonate I think. Commercial nuetraceuticals and Biotin in water are not the only options.

I am sure when they actually make the real Biotin medication (ie Cerenday / MD1003) the actual fillers will not be detrimental and may also assist in the medications effectiveness.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby ElliotB » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:13 am

What exactly is misleading?


To be clear, Biotin is not a medication, it is a B vitamin. Fillers will likely never assist with effectiveness of Biotin, they are used simply to make the processing easier for the manufacturing process The beauty of Biotin is that it is easily absorbed as it is water soluble and does not require filler(s).


I found this article about fillers that you may find of interest:

http://draxe.com/4-dangerous-and-common ... ust-avoid/


Over the past 6 months after becoming aware of the issues with fillers, I have been eliminating vitamins/supplements that have them as I take so many.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby CureOrBust » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:49 pm

Again, neutraceuaticals are not your only option. You can control exactly what the fillers are. Compounding pharmacies do NOT use the fillers you are referring to. Do not get carried away in the hype of the press.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby DrGeoff » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:15 am

Looks like a conflict of concept here.

ElliotB is talking about pharmaceutical grade - that is 100% pure Biotin, and it can be taken in a variety of ways.
I use the "dissolved in a bottle of water" technique, because it is easy to take around, and raises no eyebrows. Others do it differently.

What might be called supplement grade - 1% pure - comes with a load of fillers to bulk it up.
This makes it easier to measure in a commercial operation, and keeps the apparent price down.
The fillers are not intended to take up empty space in a capsule. They are, in effect a powder dilutant, so that it is Biotin that is diluted by the filler.
So, whether you take 1% Biotin tablets from the health store, or 1% Biotin capsules from a compounder, you are taking a whole lot of filler.
To be specific, to get the 300mg daily dose of Biotin, you are ingesting 29.7 grams of filler.
OK, the filler may be harmless in itself, but would wou choose to ingest about an ounce of Dicalcium Phosphate every day? And that is apart from the fact that you are paying over the odds for it.

Or, look at it like this:
100 grams of 1% Biotin from Amazon costs $13.96. To get the equivalent of 100 grams of 100% will cost you $1396 (call it 1400 bucks).
!00 grams of 100% Biotin from Pure Bulk will cost you just $209 (today's price).

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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby ElliotB » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:35 pm

"100 grams of 100% Biotin from Pure Bulk will cost you just $209 (today's price)"

100 grams of pharmaceutical grade Biotin from Bulk Supplements is about $20 less. I have used both and prefer the Biotin from Bulk Supplements. It has less taste (both are pretty much tasteless) and seems to mix better with water.

Here is a link to their site:

http://www.bulksupplements.com/pure-bio ... in-b7.html



Also, 100 grams will last approximately 300 days, so the cost per month is very, very low.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby CureOrBust » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:52 pm

When you encapsulate your own, you would ONLY be using "100%" pure biotin (even though its not really 100.0%) So I do not see why you would even mention the fillers in any clacs.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby DrGeoff » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:45 pm

When you encapsulate your own, you would ONLY be using "100%" pure biotin (even though its not really 100.0%) So I do not see why you would even mention the fillers in any clacs.

This statement would not apply to anyone who did not know the difference between 100% pure and 1% pure.
OK, so I concede that "100%" pure is actually in excess of 99% pure - but if you buy direct from a reputable supplier, that is what you get.
And yes, I know that there are some Chinese suppliers that drop below 99%, but I choose not to buy from them.
There is another point, however. Most "consumer grade" micro scales are only accurate to within +/- 5 milligrams IN USE. To do better, you have to use them on an absolutely level, absolutely rigid surface.
So, if you are weighing nominal 100mg to put in a capsule, your errors may cancel out, or may sum to 15mg.
The nominal 300mg to put in a bottle of water will only be - at most - 5mg out.
I am tempted to get out my old ammunition reloading scales and go for 4.63 grains as an alternative.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby CureOrBust » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:57 pm

DrGeoff wrote:OK, so I concede that "100%" pure is actually in excess of 99% pure - but if you buy direct from a reputable supplier, that is what you get.
And yes, I know that there are some Chinese suppliers that drop below 99%, but I choose not to buy from them.
Its a pity a lot of reputable suppliers are sourcing from china themselves. My main concern is the "type" of biotin we get as compared to what was actually used in the study.

DrGeoff wrote:There is another point, however. Most "consumer grade" micro scales are only accurate to within +/- 5 milligrams IN USE. To do better, you have to use them on an absolutely level, absolutely rigid surface.
So, if you are weighing nominal 100mg to put in a capsule, your errors may cancel out, or may sum to 15mg.
The nominal 300mg to put in a bottle of water will only be - at most - 5mg out.
I am tempted to get out my old ammunition reloading scales and go for 4.63 grains as an alternative.

This is why a compounding pharmacy (and myself) do capsules in bulk (24 for me, probably 100 at a pharmacy) and also use inert fillers. Instead of measuring out individual 100mg doses, 24 (in my case) doses are measured out as a single 2400mg dose, mixed with 10000mg filler and then divided into 24 capsules in my case. I worked it out so that I simply fill the capsules to the top, and that's a divided dose. Therefore, the +/-5mg spread over 24 capsules becomes really insignificant; although reading the related patent highlights how the exact dose is not as important as with other "meds". About 8 times better spread than measuring a single 300mg dose into a bottle of water; but I can see the advantage of its simplicity. And you can get capsule machines with higher counts than my 24; I think mine was the smallest count.
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Re: RE A CANADIAN MS MAN WALKING AFTER USING BIOTIN FOR 3 WE

Postby DrGeoff » Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:50 am

CureorBust wrote
" If you make the capsules yourself, you are in control of what you use for filler, and as such, you can actually use other powders you wish to add to your intake; for example, my morning dose also has sulbutiamine and picamilon and also a small dose of Sunifram with Creatine Monohydrate as filler "

and
"When you encapsulate your own, you would ONLY be using "100%" pure biotin (even though its not really 100.0%) So I do not see why you would even mention the fillers in any clacs."

And, looking at the first quote, you are mixing four more substances into your Biotin. And then you say:
"... a single 2400mg dose, mixed with 10000mg filler and then divided into 24 capsules in my case ...".

What I would like to read is:
1 - how do you ensure that your total mix of 12400mg is - in reality - uniformly mixed. Now, I am not familiar with the others, but Biotin is not an easy substance to handle. Indeed, it is the first substance I have met with an angle of repose that exceeds 90 degrees. From this,
2 - how how do you ensure that each capsule has a uniform content of any of the substances.
I completely agree with your point that the original paper states that the exact (or should we say precise) dose is not critical, but I fail to see how your approach (methodical though it may be) will be more accurate than my bottle of water when it comes to Biotin

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