More on iron chelation

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby L » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:31 pm

whyRwehere wrote:Help :!:
I want to read this, but it is hard to follow as it is too long for the page!!


That second link is the full paper, the first link is just the abstract and request to pay for the whole paper. You can read the paper at the 2nd link ok?

NewHope wrote:Dear L,

I just wanted to thank you so much about bringing up Green Tea! Generally I hate any tea!:) Well I had a cup of green tea in the late afternoon yesterday and today I am doing sooooo much better than I was during the past months!!! I feel strength and stability in my body! I couldn't fall asleep last night probably because of the late time of the day I had my tea (around 4 pm) and the caffeine contents in it. But not being able to fall asleep fast is nothing compared to the great way I feel today. Plus, that is easy to correct by having the tea earlier during the day. I hope very much this improvement will stay as I continue taking Green Tea! Thank you SO much, L!!!


That really is great. I'm surprised that it could have such an immediate effect but what do I know?

You can also get Green Tea extract capsules which are the equivalent to many cups. Could be worth looking in to..
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Postby zinamaria » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:30 pm

hi newhope,
You might try decaf green tea so you can drink it at night?

Also, I am still researching myself on IP6, which is Phytic acid. It has been my understanding that Phytic acid makes digestion of nuts, seeds, grains and legumes more difficult to digest, which is why I soak my grains and nuts for 12- 24 hrs (not sprouting buy only soaking). I then cook the grain, like rice or quinoa, which after soaking and rinsed also taste much better as the flavor seems to open up after soaking; the same with nuts, like almonds, I dehydrate them or roast them, or make almond milk ( just throw the almonds in the blender with a little water and voila!)

So when I came across this thread that mentioned IP6 I just thought to suggest people doing more research on taking it because of it's possible 'harms' rather than 'good'.

BTW..Anyone have a good product recommendation for decaf green tea extract? (My poor bladder can only take drinking so much tea!)

And I also came across information on Vitamin C and iron, that it does the opposite of chelation, but the site did not suggest not taking it. Sorry don't have any links cause it was late and I didn't save them..

Anyhow, I think it's right to keep researching to be as informed as one can be before making a decision.

peace,
zina
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Postby Cece » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:41 pm

Vitamin C and alcohol both increase the absorption of iron.

If I have to choose...

Scurvy can't be that bad, right? :)
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby shye » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:50 pm

Zinamaria
the phytic acid in nuts and grains makes the minerals harder to be released, so are not absorbed--this chelating (clawing onto the minerals) is what the IP6 (from phytic acid) does to the iron, takes it out of the blood and out of the body. Probably takes some other stuff also, but I think it favors iron, and i think cadmium, but not Ca, mg, and K. Will check exactly what it favors, and post when find this info.

and for our purposes, don't take Vit C and iron together--wait at least 2 hours between. And no citrus fruit etc with meat. The c facilitates iron absorption. When eat meat, take tea or coffee, which blocks some of the iron absorption.
Last edited by shye on Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NewHope » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:00 pm

Thanks for the advice, L! I will definitely look for a Green Tea supplement! And thank you, Zina, for sharing what you have found out about IP6 as well as for the advice about soaking food! I have tried soaking nuts, seeds and rice and they are much tastier and much healthier!

I also wanted to point out that I have been doing better since I started using Inclined Bed Therapy (about 10 days ago). I have reported in the Inclined Bed Therapy thread about that. It has helped me improve a lot. But I had an additional boost today which I though may have come from the green tea I had yesterday!
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Postby NewHope » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:42 pm

Thanks for the information, Shye! That's very good to know!
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Postby zinamaria » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:53 am

Hi Shye,

Thanks for further clarification on IP6, I am now leaning in that direction as I continue my research! I cannot find decaf green tea extract and then saw that it may not be as effective as green tea with caffeine, and it would be important to know how it is decaffeinated..plus it does seem like IP6 might be a better iron chelator.
Now my concern is chocolate, which if given my druthers (does anyone say that anymore??) I would eat all day long, dark, 85% is my preference. Now with that little admission out, I only eat about two squares a day (down from a serious addiction a few years ago, almost a bar a day). I do not eat any sugar, use stevia for sweetening, so 85% fit my low to no sugar intake.
But now!! with CCSVI I am concerned about being a 'vasoconstricter' because of the caffeine! Same with green tea. (Have not had coffee in over 10yrs).

Great to see parseley (sp) is a vasodilator, now I going to do research on what other foods would be vasodilator's..

So everyone, if I sound confused, it's because I am! Talk about navigation, I ought to have a pilot's license about now.
But really, it's just that food and nutrition are a big part of what has kept me stable, I think, so I want to make the right choice as far as iron chelation goes.

and newhope,
inclined bed now almost 3mths, I love it!

thanx everyone for all the valuable and great input!
Stay positive,
Peace
Zina
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Postby L » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:22 am

NewHope wrote:Thanks for the advice, L!


Don't mention it!

zinamaria wrote:I cannot find decaf green tea extract and then saw that it may not be as effective as green tea with caffeine..


This is the brand that I got (I'm sensitive to caffeine so it had to be decaffeinated).

http://www.allstarhealth.com/f/source_n ... _500mg.htm




I wonder if all of these efforts to get rid of the iron will actually work?

I have Green Tea, Butcher's Broom and Horse Chestnut, soon I will have IP6 too, I eat plenty of brocolli and nuts anyway. But I wonder if all of these things could actually make a difference.

ACE inhibitors are powerful vasodilators too. Perhaps we should all ask our doctors for a prescription..
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The best natural chelator

Postby ama » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:43 am

The best natural chelator is alpha lipoic acid. It chelates all kind of metals and it can cross the blood brain barrier.
the best
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Re: The best natural chelator

Postby L » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:56 am

ama wrote:The best natural chelator is alpha lipoic acid. It chelates all kind of metals and it can cross the blood brain barrier.
the best
ama


Better than IP6? Whereabouts did you get this information?I found one page http://www.advance-health.com/rlipoicacid.html that says that it's chealting action was "considered to be fairly weak"

Sorry to question you!
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Re: The best natural chelator

Postby ama » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:47 am

L wrote:Better than IP6? Whereabouts did you get this information?I found one page http://www.advance-health.com/rlipoicacid.html that says that it's chealting action was "considered to be fairly weak"

Sorry to question you!


It is ok with your question.
Just a few citations:
The role of thiols, dithiols, nutritional factors and interacting ligands in the toxicology of mercury
[url]
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 6a8962271f[/url]

Neuroprotection by the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid. In: Free radical biology & medicine. 22, Nr. 1-2, 1997, S. 359-378.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8958163?dopt=Abstract

Effect of lipoic acid on biliary excretion of glutathione and metals
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WXH-4DD302R-BG&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F1992&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c0e4a9ac60957c57d8900b1b788e99f9

Sorry L that I have just these, but there a lot of other sources, especially in Europe, where alpha lipoic acid is a prescribable drug for chelation. It is often used in relation with heavy metal contamination like miercury and uranium, lead. If you are interessested you have to be carefull if you take it, that you dont take it with meals because its absorbing all metals out of the meals and gets useless and you have to look for a product where there is no metals mixed in like magnesium.

I dont know if r lipoic acid is the same as alpha lipoic acid. Another common name is thioctic acid.
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Postby shye » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:35 pm

ama, in the third reference re ALA above:
Despite increasing glutathione output, LA (150 μmol/kg, iv) did not increase, but rather decreased, the biliary excretion of methylmercury, cadmium, zinc, and copper, which are transported into bile in a glutathione-dependent manner, as indicated by a marked reduction in their biliary excretion after diethyl maleate-induced glutathione depletion. In contrast, biliary excretion of inorganic mercury, which is minimally affected by glutathione depletion, was dramatically enhanced (12- to 37-fold) by LA administration.

I thought it was the toxic form, methylmercury, that we wanted out--if that is the case, Lipoic acid doesn't do it.

in the above: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8958 ... t=Abstract
it discusses alpha lipoic acid as a potent antioxidant--which it is--but NOWHERE does it talk about it as a chelator. An antioxidant and a chelator are two very separate, disctinct things.

And in the first article, the only reference to ALA is this sentence:
Alpha-lipoic acid (ALA), a disulfide, and its metabolite dihydrolipoic acid (DHLA), a dithiol, have also been shown to have chelation properties when used in an appropriate manner.
You cannot use this as proof of ALA's chelation properties, it does not even go into what they mean by the appropriate manner!-(could be by taking enormous amounts, but who knows?)
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Postby ama » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:47 pm

Hi shye,
it is also a chelation drug. There are more than only the antioxidant effect. If you look at other sources you will find a lot about the chelation effect. Another known effect is the regeneration of vitamins.
Administration of LA enhanced the biliary excretion of reduced glutathione in a dose-dependent fashion.
....
In contrast, biliary excretion of inorganic mercury, which is minimally affected by glutathione depletion, was dramatically enhanced (12- to 37-fold) by LA administration.

This was missing in your Quote.

Lipoic acid as an anti-inflammatory and neuroprotective treatment for Alzheimer's disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1865 ... dinalpos=6
LA chelates redox-active transition metals, thus inhibiting the formation of hydroxyl radicals and also scavenges reactive oxygen species (ROS), thereby increasing the levels of reduced glutathione.


Another source
Chelation therapy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy
Last edited by ama on Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Johnson » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:43 am

I know that most are writing of Green Tea, etc. here, but I came across this FDA warning on Exjade - a Novartis drug approved for iron chelation.

Exjade (deferasirox): Boxed Warning

Audience: Hematology-Oncology healthcare professionals

[Posted 02/18/2010] Novartis Oncology and FDA notified healthcare professionals about recent changes in the Prescribing Information (PI) for Exjade, indicated for the treatment of chronic iron overload due to blood transfusions in patients 2 years of age and older. New language was added to the Contraindications, Warnings and Precautions, and Drug Interactions sections of the PI, including a Boxed Warning, that the product may cause:

* renal impairment, including failure
* hepatic impairment, including failure
* gastrointestinal hemorrhage

In some reported cases, these reactions were fatal. These reactions were more frequently observed in patients with advanced age, high risk myelodysplastic syndromes, underlying renal or hepatic impairment or low platelet counts. Exjade therapy requires close patient monitoring, including measurement of serum creatinine and/or creatinine clearance as specified in the PI and serum transaminases and bilirubin as specified in the PI.

[02/17/2010 - Dear Healthcare Professional Letter1 - Novartis]
[01/28/2010 - Exjade (deferasirox) Prescribing Information2 - Novartis]

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHumanMedicalProducts/ucm200850.htm

I do Green Tea extract, and a few other "natural things", but I had read somewhere on this forum of people writing about using Exjade,.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby shye » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:27 am

ama
re:
Administration of LA enhanced the biliary excretion of reduced glutathione in a dose-dependent fashion.
....
In contrast, biliary excretion of inorganic mercury, which is minimally affected by glutathione depletion, was dramatically enhanced (12- to 37-fold) by LA administration.


This was missing in your Quote.


The majority of glutathione in the body is present in its reduced form because this is the only way it can perform its critical role. So you don't particularly want to chelate it out. And methylmercury is what we need to worry about, not the inorganic mercury.

I have been using ALA for years, it is about the best you can get as antioxidant, but it has minimal use as a chelator.
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