More on iron chelation

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby ama » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:19 am

Hi shye.
shye wrote:I have been using ALA for years, it is about the best you can get as antioxidant, but it has minimal use as a chelator.


If it depend on the dose and the mode how you administer it, what was your dose and how did you administer it?

I dont know why there are so many sources talking about the chelation benefit especially in heavy metal chelation and with you it didnt work at all?

some more sources in english language:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7605337
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp013935q
http://www.advance-health.com/rlipoicacid.html
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Postby shye » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:40 pm

was just doing research on manganese and came across this re Iron:

On the other hand, taking higher amounts of Milk Thistle will in time decrease manganese and

iron stores,
which can be an advantage with hemochromatosis (excess iron storage disease), where regular

consumption of milk thistle, RNA / DNA, magnesium and Vitamin B2 - as individually matched - will return

iron levels closer to normal,
and frequently eliminate the need for phlebotomies. ¤

from http://www.acu-cell.com/femn.html
Last edited by shye on Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby shye » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:54 pm

ama,
I am not trying to be contary--just being as exact as should be in science, and as should be if you are going to use substances for particular purposes.

your first reference:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7605337
Thioctic (lipoic) acid: a therapeutic metal-chelating antioxidant? This is a postulation, not a proof!

your second reference:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp013935q
This was in reference to ALA and gold and silver--nothing to do with Iron.

your third reference:
http://www.advance-health.com/rlipoicacid.html
specifically states:
The chelating action of R Alpha Lipoic Acid is considered to be relatively weak compared to other chelating agents.
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Postby L » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:11 pm

Cece wrote:Vitamin C and alcohol both increase the absorption of iron.

If I have to choose...

Scurvy can't be that bad, right? :)


Maybe alcohol isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Isn't this saying that, a moderate amount at least, doesn't increase the iron absorption..
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112698778/abstract
"These studies show that the acute ingestion of ethanol does not influence the absorption of inorganic iron, while it does diminish the absorption of the organic form."

It's only an abstract though, and it is from 1978...

Here's a full text (this one from '64!) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1817497/ Which states it is that excessive consumption of alcohol that leads to absorption of iron.

And here "At intoxicating levels, alcohol is a vasodilator (it causes blood vessels to relax and widen), but at even higher levels, it becomes a vasoconstrictor, shrinking the vessels and increasing blood pressure, exacerbating such conditions as migraine headaches and frostbite." http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... fects-of-a
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found a paper that says ibuprofen chelates iron

Postby msscooter » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:27 am

from the abstract:

Ibuprofen also formed iron chelates that lack the free coordination site required for iron to be reactive. Thus, ibuprofen may prevent iron-mediated generation of oxidants or iron-mediated lipid peroxidation after phosgene exposure. This suggests a new mechanism for ibuprofen's action.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... t=abstract
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Postby CureOrBust » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:49 am

Interesting.
It may be noted that several classes of commonly used drugs have members with iron-chelating properties. Examples include antiinfectives such as tetracyclines, rifamycin, and isoniazid; antineoplastics such as anthracyclines and bleomycin; and antiinflamatories such as salicylate and ibuprofen. However, these drugs were developed without emphasis on their iron-chelating feature or their possible ability to alter iron mismanagement.
in google books, page 193 Advances in Applied Microbiology, Volume 52
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tetracyclines

Postby jak7ham9 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:40 am

yes i have a small decrease in tightnes when I take doxycycline wondering if that if that is from iron chelation
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Re: tetracyclines

Postby L » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:53 am

jak7ham9 wrote:yes i have a small decrease in tightnes when I take doxycycline wondering if that if that is from iron chelation


OK, that makes so much sense! It explains why people find success in long term antibiotic therapy for MS. Thanks! I never could consolidate that treatment with the other factors that seem to allow the immune system to go wrong (I'm thinking of EBV, a lack of vitamin D, CCSVI.) At least now I have an explanation which makes sense.

Thanks!

Three tetracyclines (tetracycline, doxycycline, and minocycline) chelate iron, so the internet says...
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Postby zinamaria » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:32 am

Hello iron chelators!

When I mentioned soaking nuts, seeds and grains prior to cooking and eating, I knew it was something to do with phytic acid...been doing it so long I forgot exactly why I do this, although I knew it was something to do with digestion, and anything to help my digestion is one of my goals in life! And shye broke it down beautifully, reminding me that the good minerals in grains and nuts do not absorb as well in the gut because of the phytic acid, which blocks the absorption...hence the soaking.

Then today as I was draining off the water from my soaked almonds and pumpkin seed and sunflower seeds ( I eat more seeds and nuts than grain) I thought, hey, wait a minute, why not drink the drained water which has all the phytic acid?? I got very very excited by the reasoning that it would be IP6 naturally (any way to get anything from food is my interest). Any thoughts out there?

Also heard Ibprofen is not good for the liver.

Peace, keep up the good fight everyone!
Zina
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Postby shye » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:34 pm

Zinamaria
you might be onto something--but one reservation I would have : the soaking of grains is not just to get rid of the phytic acid, but also the enzyme inhibitors--so unless these enzyme inhibitors are denatured in the process of soaking (and I don't think that is the case) you would still end up with these.
I just emailed someone I think is an expert in this area, and will post the answer (if any) that I get.
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new iron chelator

Postby jak7ham9 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:24 pm

Researchers at the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology have developed three drugs to remove excess iron from the brains of patients with neurodegenerative diseases. The presence of too much iron in the brain is a hallmark of such diseases. The drugs, VK-28, HLA-20 and M30, mop up the iron before it can trigger a "brain rust" chemical reaction where highly active oxygen particles destroy brain cells.

Professor Moussa Youdim of the Faculty of Medicine and his colleagues – Prof. Avraham Warshawsky (now deceased), Prof. Mati Fridkin and Ph.D. student Hailin Zheng from China – have received U.S. and worldwide patents on VK-28, HLA-20 and M30. Youdim says the three drugs could treat and perhaps prevent a range of diseases including Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, Huntington’s and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS).



Unlike other drugs currently used against these disorders – which attempt to replace the functions lost by dying neurons – these drugs halt the neuron destruction itself. Normally, iron is a helpful partner in the body’s metabolism, shuttling electrons between molecules in chemical reactions that break down fats, carbohydrates and proteins, and provide energy to cells. Because iron is so reactive, the body usually keeps tight control over the amount and activity of iron circulating in the brain and other organs.

When these control mechanisms fail, however, too much "free" iron can participate in rust-like reactions that produce damaging byproducts such as oxygen free radicals. These highly active particles hurtle themselves at cells with destructive force, collapsing and eventually killing them. The deadly bombardment might explain why neurons die off in the iron-rich brain tissue of Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s patients, Youdim says.

Youdim and his former student, Dr. Dorit Ben Shachar, were the first to suggest that iron chelators could prevent the neurotoxicity of iron in an animal model of Parkinson’s disease with Desferal, a well-known iron chelator. Iron chelators are small molecules that bind to excess iron and prevent it from participating in chemical reactions that could damage neurons and other cells.

But they discovered that Desferal needed to be directly injected into the brain, leading to the new VK-28, which can cross into the brain via the bloodstream. The other two drugs – HLA-20 and M30 – are combination drugs. They increase Dopamine levels and remove excess iron that could cause further damage to the neurons that transmit dopamine. "Drugs with multiple actions may be more effective in controlling and treating neurodegenerative disorders," he explains.

The work of Youdim and his colleagues appears in the November 2004 Nature Review Neuroscience. The have also published several other papers on their iron chelator research, including articles in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences (January 2004) and Neuropharmacology (January 2004) earlier this year. They will also be published in Trends in Pharmacological Sciences later this year. The researchers are now in negotiations with several American, British and Israeli companies for development of these drugs through Varinel Inc.

Youdim also discovered and co-developed Rasagiline, a drug that boosts levels of a brain chemical called dopamine that is normally depleted in Parkinson’s patients; and Ladostigil, which boosts levels of acetylcholine in Alzheimer’s patients. Rasagiline has received a letter of approval from the FDA, while Ladostigil is currently in the clinical trials phase.

The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology is Israel’s leading science and technology university and home to the country’s only winners of the Nobel Prize in science. It commands a worldwide reputation for its pioneering work in computer science, biotechnology, water-resource management, materials engineering, aerospace and medicine. The majority of the founders and managers of Israel’s high-tech companies are alumni. Based in New York City, the American Technion Society is the leading American organization supporting higher education in Israel, with more than 20,000 supporters and 19 offices around the country.
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ibuprofen toxicity

Postby msscooter » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:30 am

the liver toxicity from nsaids ( ibuporofen) is real but only for very few people. if they stop when they don't feel well and get their enzymes tested regularly. and they actually stop taking the drug when they enzymes are high they can in almost all cases recover fully.
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doxycycline

Postby msscooter » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:38 am

for the past two years i have been taking doxyclcline every other month with my solumedrol. (I'm SPMS) I have actually improved in that period when i was only going downhill before. I also take lisinopril which treats HBP by relaxing blood vessels. maybe these are working because of CCSVI....

I took the doxycline cuz an "out of the box" doctor friend said there was a "stealth virus theory" of MS that showed some good results with doxycycline. i also had possible + lyme test results and doxycycline was a cheap easily tolerated way to hit both possibilities---and i felt better. went from 4 to 3.5 on my EDSS.
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Postby Bethr » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:27 am

Phlebotomy worked for me so well. Over the last month my daytime sleeping is down by 75%, and over the last two weeks by 90%. I'm actually quite energetic, not much brain fog but I was getting heart arythmias that seem to be calming now, could be my blood draw was too big. Still awake sometimes in the middle of the night (like now :lol: ).

I started taking Inositol (IP-6), a couple of days ago.

If you have some iron to spare, I'd encourage people to get blood taken. It's the natural way of using iron stores, what better way to keep a body in balance with little outside interference.

Merlyn on the phlebotomy thread has had excellent results.
Mine have been outstanding.

Problem is that blood donation is forbidden in most countries if you have MS. There are few avenues for people to get a phlebotomy.

All I can say is for me, the results have been amazing.
I also have a vein that had bled for thirty years regularly, many times in a month. Since my phlebotomy six weeks ago, it just stopped and bowel problems seem to have gone. So as far as I'm concerned being de-ironed helped my vein heal. There must be something in this!
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Postby shye » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:03 am

In NY State, you can donate blood if you have Ms if no flare within past month (might actually be less than a month)--don't know how much each State differs in this.
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