Excellent study of Vascular vs. Autoimmune theory, from 80's

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Excellent study of Vascular vs. Autoimmune theory, from 80's

Postby fogdweller » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:55 pm

Family elder Zap posted an excellent study from the 80's on the struggle between the vascular theory and the autoimmune theory as the cause of MS. It is at http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 1&SRETRY=0

It is so good I though it deserved its own topic.

some higlights.. MS usualy treated by neurologists familiar with immune system but not vascular issues... relative funding ease for studies in autoimmune since MS socienties with the money usually worked with the doctors treating the patients... relative political power within the medical establisment, etc. It rather clearly appears that the resolution between the two competing theories was swung to the autoimmune theory for reasons other than scientifically rigorous testing results in favor of one or the other.

To what is in the article I would add that we created an autoimmune animal model, AEA that had MS like characteristics and because it was a murine animial model gave us the ability to to preclinical testing impossible with only human patients. And of couirse, autoimmune treatment showed hopeful results in AEA (duh ... it was created as an autoimmune model)

This struggle between the two competing theories just a couple decades ago is rather striking since the reaction we seem to be getting from press and from neurologists is that a possible vascular cause is an exotic idea out of left feild and something truely out of the box and unlikely, when it clearly was a strongly competing theory just 20 or thirty years ago!
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Postby shye » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:54 pm

fascinating Fogdweller-
thanks for reposting, didn't see it before.
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Postby tazbo » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:18 pm

That is an amazing read. It was like reading the reasons motivating the neuros...but making a case for us demanding an answer to why the current party line stating that this vascular thing is just some big unknown with no connection possible with M.S.
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Postby ms2009 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:55 pm

It is an amazing article. I am not sure whether it is one of the high rank journals. However, it gives the full support for CCSVI and that the vascular approach is not just "Junk Science" as some people claimed.

It is amazing how the doctors of the 19th century were able to think about MS deeper than what the hi-tech is offering doctors these days. In addition, the Italians were pioneers in the 20th century as well with the treatment of MS and MS-like diseases.

The issues about the validity of the clinical trial was the last weapon for the loosing party back then and now as well.

The main flaw with most of the arguments for immunology MS causes dates back to the 1930s where a clinical trian on animals proven that suppressing the immune system will stop the progress of MS. Logically, this can be refuted because it is stopping a symptom (demyelinating) and not stopping the main cause of the illness. However, people acclaimed this theory with the support of MS societies (and Pharmas behind them) and nobody dared to challenge this theory after that until the 21st century with Zamboni and the others.

Even in the 1970s, financing for any MS research was next to impossible if it does not appeal to the mood of the MS societies. With a lot of public pressure, the MS societies were still reluctant to finance any studies out of the immunology department (does it remind you of the $100k that the Canadian MS society has put for CCSVI???). For example, the Fisher (1978) study has yielded the same results as the immunology test. However, Fisher results were not plausible because it does not get along with the social forces behind the immunology societies controlling all the funding.

This makes it very clear that any breakthrough treatment for MS needs a non-conventional channel. Do not expect the pharma to give it away. Academic labs (who are not aligned with the mood of the societies) can not be funded to work out of the box !!!

Hence, it needs a lot of pushing. The british MS society has seen a lot of public pressure to go in a different direction (documented in this paper) but they were always reluctant and always able to go away with it.

We need to push and push and push until we reach a good level of understanding from all parties that MS threaten lives and not just pockets.
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Postby ms2009 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:56 pm

If anyone needs a copy of the paper and can not get it, PM me.
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Postby caraboo » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:59 am

ms2009 wrote:If anyone needs a copy of the paper and can not get it, PM me.
H i this is my first time, i cant seem to open this i would love a copy.caraboo
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Postby sbr487 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:22 am

Leaving fundamental research as important as research on human disease and cure to market forces is susceptible to such bias. Recent study on gene mutations in skin and lung cancer diseases being undertaken by a charity organization is a case in point.
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Postby Sotiris » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:03 pm

caraboo wrote:
ms2009 wrote:If anyone needs a copy of the paper and can not get it, PM me.
H i this is my first time, i cant seem to open this i would love a copy.caraboo
You can try the following link
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 0/PDFSTART
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Postby Billmeik » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:27 pm

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Postby cheerleader » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:42 pm

We had a good discussion on this paper on Facebook back in January--
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=238614362210
I have a link to the pdf on that page--

I love this paper...and thanks to Zap for digging it up and Fogdweller for refreshing our memory-
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Amazing

Postby BELOU » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:52 pm

Wow... your guys are amazing. Every time I go on thisisms I find something new and also pointing toward the venous desease hypothesis...

I begin to believe that it's not a dream!
RR:2004 EDSS: 0 COPAXONE since 2009
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Postby Billmeik » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:24 am

http://www.CPn Help.org/files/Ref1_Annals04.pdf


this is the paper with the recent ms death autopsy and no immune activity. s
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Postby Billmeik » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:33 am

[url]The authors interpret their findings to indicate that plaques grow through loss of oligodendrocytes on the plaque border, which is followed by myelin breakdown, scavenging of debris by phagocytes, and infiltration of immune cells such as T cells. What causes the oligodendrocytes to die is not known[/url]

another autopsy paper this time from australia



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20035511?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

there were plenty of findings that oligodendracyte death happens first before an immune attack. I wonder how that works with the ccsvi model?

[/u]
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Postby cheerleader » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:34 am

Here's the Barnett and Sutton paper in toto--looking at fresh lesions and cell death preceding myelin loss--the authors propose a few theories. One that has stayed with me is hypoxic injury- because this could be caused by venous hypertension and the inability of oxygen to get into the MS brain in a timely matter, due to the delayed exit of deoxygenated blood. Endothelial disruption and a break in the BBB could follow.

link

The Pathology of MS: A paradigm shift-


Oligodendrocytes, and to a lesser extent other cell types in the outer lesion edge and the outermost rims of preserved myelin in expanding concentric lesions, showed intense expression of markers of hypoxia-like tissue damage (D-110epitope), regulators in the induction of hypoxic preconditioning (HIF-1a) and stress proteins which afford protection against hypoxic injury (heat-shock protein 70). Mitochondrial dysfunction, perhaps induced by inflammatory mediators or nitrogen/oxygen intermediates,has been invoked as the potential basis of
preconditioning.


cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Billmeik » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:20 pm

the idea I had was that apoptosis caused the cell death. apoptosis is programmed cellular suicide. When humans are in the womb for example, we have webbed fingers. Those cells are programmed to disappear before birth. If this same mechanism was broken, cells could get the wrong programs, causing cell death.

Hypoxia fits just as well as far as I know, and it would fill out this model well. So ccsvi-> hypoxia->oligodendracite death->immune response.

wonder if that's right.
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