CCSVI and Low Blood Oxygen

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

CCSVI and Low Blood Oxygen

Postby Vonna » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:55 pm

Hi all,

I have been gathering information on a particular subject that I find very interesting. For me, this is a scientific explanation for many of our strange and unexplainable symptoms!

This information is based on the idea that a person with MS has CCSVI. CCSVI hinders blood circulation! If blood gets trapped in the brain for even a few seconds, this can be a big problem. The blood is now de-oxygenated and needs to travel back to the lungs and heart to get re-oxygenated. Since the veins in our skull can only hold so much blood, we have a problem. De-oxygenated blood is taking up space in our veins and hindering vital fresh oxygen from circulating properly! Even a 10% reduction of oxygen can have a huge impact, especially if it is for a long period of time. I can't express to you how much sense this makes to me, and it answers my questions as to why I have constant headaches in the back of my head (where the jugular veins meet) and burning on the top of my head, along with cog fog and a host of other MS symptoms. I have included the references so you can verify the information if you would like.
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From an aviators point of view

EFFECTS OF LACK OF OXYGEN (due to high altitude)

Effects of Hypoxia People differ in their reactions to hunger, thirst, and other sensations. The same thing is true of individual reactions to oxygen starvation. The effects of hypoxia on a given person cannot be accurately predicted. For example, a person may be relatively unaffected one day, but highly susceptible the next. It is difficult to detect hypoxia, because its victims are seldom able to judge how seriously they are affected, or if they are affected at all. The unpleasant sensations experienced in suffoca-tion are absent in the case of hypoxia. Blurring of vision, slight shortness of breath, a vague, weak feeling, and a little dizziness are the only warnings.

BELOW 10,000 FEET.- At or below 10,000 feet, some effects of hypoxia may be present. Generally, the eye is the first part of the body to suffer effects of hypoxia. Even at a relatively low altitude of approximately 5,000 feet, where no other effect of hypoxia can be detected, night vision is appreciable reduced. At 10,000 feet, night operations may be seriously handicapped by poor night vision, which is due to mild oxygen starvation.

BETWEEN 10,000 AND 15,000 FEET.- The greatest dangers are from errors in judgment or performance due to drowsiness or mental confusion. At these altitudes, long flights without oxygen produce persistent drowsiness and excessive fatigue for many hours afterward. Frequently, persistent headaches develop soon after completion of the flight.

BETWEEN 15,000 AND 20,000 FEET.- Flights at 15,000 to 20,000 feet, even for short periods, must not be attempted without the use of oxygen. Collapse and unconsciousness are common.

BETWEEN 20,000 AND 25,000 FEET.- The general symptoms of drowsiness, mental confusion, dim vision, and dizziness occur here, as at lower altitudes, but they come on much more quickly, allowing less opportunity for corrective action.

BETWEEN 25,000 AND 30,000 FEET.- Between 25,000 and 30,000 feet, collapse, unconsciousness, and death quickly follow interruption of the oxygen supply. Mask leakage at these altitudes may cause a degree of hypoxia that, although not noticed during flight, can produce considerable fatigue and have serious cumulative effects.
http://www.tpub.com/ase2/85.htm
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What Causes Acute Mountain Sickness?

At a high altitude the air is said to be ‘thinner'. This means that the concentration of oxygen is less, and air pressure is reduced. This combination leads to acute mountain sickness. In the same way that one may feel light headed holding their breath, when oxygen is scarce, the brain is deprived of oxygen - and dizziness results.

Height above 14,000 feet increases the risk of mild symptoms, but people who stay at this level for a prolonged time may develop more severe symptoms. The condition can be made worse as a person suffering from symptoms may become anxious or stressed, breathe quicker and hyperventilate - further exacerbating the situation.

Diagnosing Acute Mountain Sickness

Symptoms of acute mountain sickness can affect the nervous system, lungs, muscles, and heart.
Symptoms of mild to moderate acute mountain sickness

• Difficulty sleeping
• Feeling dizzy or light-headed
• Fatigue
• Headaches
• Loss of appetite (with or without nausea and/or vomiting)
• Rapid heart race
• Shortness of breath (when exerted)
• Symptoms of more severe Acute Mountain Sickness include:
• Discoloration of the skin (Blue tinge on face, fingernail beds, around the mouth)
• Chest tightness or congestion-(MS hug-Lavonna just had to add this)
• Confusion
• Cough (with our without blood)
• Withdrawal from social interaction
• Gray or pale complexion
• Inability to walk in a straight line (or cannot walk at all)
• Shortness of breath (at rest)

http://www.nativeremedies.com/ailment/l ... kness.html
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Hypoxemia (low blood oxygen)

Your cells need a constant supply of oxygen to function normally. When this supply is reduced or interrupted, you can develop hypoxemia, a low level of oxygen in your blood. Hypoxemia can disrupt your body's functioning and harm vital tissues.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypoxemia/MY00219

Symptoms of Low Blood Oxygen

By Dana George, eHow Contributing Writer

Low blood oxygen, also known as hypoxemia, is a condition where the oxygen level in your arterial blood drops below a normal level, which would be anywhere between 95 and 100 percent saturation, according to the Mayo Clinic. As blood oxygen dips down to 85 and 90 percent, your cells cease to perform as usual, upsetting the function of your organs and tissues. When this happens, you'll inevitably begin to manifest certain signs and symptoms of this lack of oxygen in your blood.

Respiratory Disturbance
1. If you had low blood oxygen, you would begin to experience shortness of breath. This particular symptom may start out gradual at first, coming on as an almost unnoticeable change to your respiration, impacting you more during times of physical exertion. But as your blood oxygen saturation falls, this windedness would become more and more pronounced, affecting you even at times of rest.

Fatigue
2. Since low blood oxygen is essentially depriving your organs of oxygen, you may begin to experience fatigue. And much like the symptom of respiratory disturbance, this indicator will typically come on slowly. You may start out feeling a little more tired than normal. This could then progress into fatigue until you finally feel exhausted or worn out. Sometimes, if your blood oxygen saturation drops rather quickly, this fatigue would hit you suddenly and unexpectedly.

Cognitive Disturbance
3. As your blood oxygen saturation falls, the oxygen that actually gets to your brain will unavoidably get less and less. When this happens, certain cognitive functions will be adversely affected and you may begin to experience intermittent episodes of confusion or uncertainty or even disorientation. It all depends on how your brain reacts to this deprivation.

Headache
4. For some people, low blood oxygen will also prompt periodic headaches. Normally, these headaches will come with other symptoms like a shortness of breath, fatigue or confusion. Very rarely will this symptom develop all on its own. It should also be noted that a headache due to low blood oxygen will react to anti-inflammatory medications, such as ibuprofen and acetaminophen, just like any other headache, but these drugs are not remedying your blood oxygen saturation, only this symptom of low blood oxygen.

Medical Care
5. If you were to experience these symptoms, you should contact a doctor immediately as the low blood oxygen itself could be a symptom of serious condition...
http://www.ehow.com/about_5057273_sympt ... xygen.html

I'll just have to say, that these symptoms hit home with me to the point that I am completely amazed with this information. I do believe our symptoms are a sign of a serious condition, and our doctors should take them more seriously!

Now, we finally have a true, scientific explanation for many of our strange and unexplainable symptoms!

Thanks for your time!

Vonna
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low blood oxygen

Postby elyse_peace » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:29 pm

Wow, Vonna --
Thank you for doing all that work!
My doctor (for lyme disease, which I also have) recommended an herbal supplement, Vinpocetine (20mg), to aid getting oxygen into the smaller blood vessels in the brain.
Best to you.
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Postby cheerleader » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:13 pm

Vonna-
I agree 100%.
This is exactly what started me on the vascular path...after Jeff returned from a week at high altitude, he had his first MS attack. I noticed his strange blood results, hypercoagulation, high liver enzymes, petechiae and jaundice. I've written about it a bunch on here. I do believe that it was the hypoxic insult of being at high altitude, combined with his jugular stenosis that lead to his MS flare and subsequent neurological damage. This hypoxic insult started the coagulation cascade, and created the break in the blood brain barrier.

Here's a thread on post hypoxic demyelination (which looks a lot like MS lesions)
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7800-hypoxia.html

Here's a thread on how hypoxia changes a personality:
Increasingly, elaboration of inflammatory cytokines appears key to the brain-based response to hypoxia, as evidenced by the biobehaviors of malaise, fatigue, lethargy, and loss of interest in the physical and social environment. These sickness symptoms implicate hypoxia-dependent activation of the neuroimmune system as a key component of acute hypoxia.

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7788-hypoxia.html

I do believe the opening of Jeff's jugular veins allowed for oxygenated blood to flow, and that is why his fatigue and malaise are gone. He is social, outgoing and involved in life again....and the only thing that has changed is that he now has venous return thru his jugular veins.
Pretty interesting, huh? Good sleuthing...
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: low blood oxygen

Postby Donnchadh » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:43 pm

elyse_peace wrote:Wow, Vonna --
Thank you for doing all that work!
My doctor (for lyme disease, which I also have) recommended an herbal supplement, Vinpocetine (20mg), to aid getting oxygen into the smaller blood vessels in the brain.
Best to you.


Interesting. I also found Vinpocetine one of the few things that helped me. I am planing on taking it again after a month passes (when I am out of the blood clot danger zone).

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Re: low blood oxygen

Postby Cece » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Donnchadh wrote:Interesting. I also found Vinpocetine one of the few things that helped me. I am planing on taking it again after a month passes (when I am out of the blood clot danger zone).


Interesting! I will look up Vinpocetine, I had not heard of it before.

Donnchadh, the blood clot danger zone is just a month? Are you having to be on blood thinners? Dr. Sclafani is putting everyone on blood thinners after angioplasty and it sounded like it would be for a few months, but I don't know for sure. I know this is a newbie-type question, but what is it about angioplasty that makes blood clots more likely?
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Re: low blood oxygen

Postby Donnchadh » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:17 pm

Cece wrote:
Donnchadh wrote:Interesting. I also found Vinpocetine one of the few things that helped me. I am planing on taking it again after a month passes (when I am out of the blood clot danger zone).


Interesting! I will look up Vinpocetine, I had not heard of it before.

Donnchadh, the blood clot danger zone is just a month? Are you having to be on blood thinners? Dr. Sclafani is putting everyone on blood thinners after angioplasty and it sounded like it would be for a few months, but I don't know for sure. I know this is a newbie-type question, but what is it about angioplasty that makes blood clots more likely?


Dr. Zamboni recommends taking a anti-clotting drug for three weeks after liberation. My IR gave me a 30 day Px for Plavik.

So, I am assuming that after a certain time period the danger of blood clots due to the procedure passes.

The reason for an anti-clotting drug is that the balloon procedure stretches the vein vessel enormously, so internal bleeding is typical.

My left internal jugular was only 0.04 cm. The IR pushed it to 9 cms in the attempt to get back to a normal width. So you can visualize how the vessel walls would be partially cracked, and bleed.

Donnchadh

PS: Not to pick on you, but this is not an angioplasty (arteries); it's a venoplasty (veins).
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Postby Cece » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:32 pm

Thanks for the info, Donnchadh. I just googled Plavix, it doesn't sound too bad.

My poor tangled veins, they have no idea what's coming for them. :)
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Re: low blood oxygen

Postby NHE » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:24 am

Donnchadh wrote:The reason for an anti-clotting drug is that the balloon procedure stretches the vein vessel enormously, so internal bleeding is typical.

My left internal jugular was only 0.04 cm. The IR pushed it to 9 cms in the attempt to get back to a normal width. So you can visualize how the vessel walls would be partially cracked, and bleed.


Wow! Is this correct, 9 cm? That's the same diameter as my fist (or 3.5" for those of us here in the states).

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Postby Nunzio » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:22 am

"The reason for an anti-clotting drug is that the balloon procedure stretches the vein vessel enormously, so internal bleeding is typical. "

Taking a blood thinner for internal bleeding make no sense since it would make the bleeding worse.
There must be another reason, possibly to avoid clotting along the wall of the stretched vein.
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Re: low blood oxygen

Postby Donnchadh » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:13 am

NHE wrote:
Donnchadh wrote:The reason for an anti-clotting drug is that the balloon procedure stretches the vein vessel enormously, so internal bleeding is typical.

My left internal jugular was only 0.04 cm. The IR pushed it to 9 cms in the attempt to get back to a normal width. So you can visualize how the vessel walls would be partially cracked, and bleed.


Wow! Is this correct, 9 cm? That's the same diameter as my fist (or 3.5" for those of us here in the states).

NHE


You are right, it should have been .9 cm? I was just out of sedation and the IR and I were talking rather quickly so could have misunderstood the exact dimension he had to expand my veins. On my follow-up visit I could ask him for the exact figure.

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Postby sou » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:34 am

My surgeon is quite conservative. He prescribed 30 injections of tinzaparin sodium (Innohep) and asked me to remain on Plavix for 6 months, because he admits sailing on uncharted waters. In addition the stenosis was awful and there was a bone strangling the vein.

Is that too much? I trust my surgeon very much and I appreciate that he spent his Christmas holidays studying how to protect me.. But I find him over-protective.

sou
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Postby hoodyup » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:19 am

I have to say that I could see the results of an increase in oxygen directly and visibly in Boopieup's case. A family friend/retired doctor lent us an O2 generator. While lying in bed within minutes of trying the machine she noticed her leg pain was gone. After turning off the machine her pain returned in within a matter of seconds. After a rather difficult transfer after a shower, she was on the floor...Try as we might we couldn't get her up on her knees to get her back into bed. As she lay there on the floor I gave her the O2 to help her get her strength back. After a couple of minutes she regained enough strength to allow us to wrangle her back into bed. I am hoping that this means that if we change the equation by allowing her blood to flow more freely (liberation) that we will see an improvement in her mobility and leg issues. If not we will be looking into a Hoyer lift. She doesn't need to spend so much time on the floor.
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anyone else have expeience wiht oxygen??

Postby Brightspot » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:42 pm

Great post Hoodyup. I have been wishing that there was some way to measure oxygen perfusion to the brain. Then it would be pretty simple to do before and after tests for those liberated and come up with the indication that there is a measurable benefit to having proper blood flow to and from your brain whether you have MS or not, whether it is called CCSVI or not. In the mean time it would be interesting to know how others have responded to oxygen. I am curious to find out whether oxygen might help me when I experience periods confusion and poor cognition.
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Postby hoodyup » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:00 pm

The home health nurses usually test her blood oxygen with their little finger clamp and it usually comes up 99% or so. A traveling doctor came by (yes, he makes house calls!) and tested her with his device and it said 93%. He didn't seem too concerned. He also renewed her script for LDN. Cool guy. At any rate, I think that anyone suffering from CCSVI would benefit from extra O2. Within minutes of getting the extra O2 her optic neuritis also improves. However, when she tried hyperbaric oxygen therapy it made it worse. I think pressure is not good for collapsing veins possibly?
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Postby shye » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:32 pm

Gingko Biloba has been around for 1000's of years, and it functions similarly to vinpocetine.
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