Suggestions on how to get the "rust" out?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Zeureka » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:27 am

Cece wrote:For getting iron out of brains, there is research somewhere here supporting green tea supplements.

I too would like for Dr. Haake to come up with a solution for this! Proving that iron is there is all well and good, but let's get it out.

Drinking green tea, a strong antioxidant, can certainly not harm! I've also heard that decaffeinated coffee may have similar effect.
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Postby Rokkit » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:24 am

Zeureka wrote:I've actually never been a fan of heavy metal 8O, have you?!

Well, I am a child of the 80's after all. :D
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Postby Merlyn » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:36 am

Bethr-I totally agree, because everybody that is testing their iron metabolism is showing some form of abnormality, and I would think this would be very useful information for anybody that is looking to improve their health. As someone with PP, my transferrin is 44% (normal should be around 30% or less). I carry the genetic mutation for hemochromatosis, but I don't think that is absolutely necessary, I think there are other factors that can also influence iron overload conditions... like I say, I don't understand the resistance to this because it is just a blood test, a fraction of the cost of an MRI for example... it is amazing information to have, it gives one a plan of attack... the more information I have about my metabolism on any level is useful.

http://msj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/14/5/602

Iron overload and upregulation of iron-handling proteins, such as TfR, in the MS brain can contribute to pathogenesis of Multiple Sclerosis and iron imbalance is associated with a prooxidative stress and a proinflammatory environment, this suggest that iron could be a target for MS therapy to improve neuronal iron metabolism.
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Postby Merlyn » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:40 pm

I don't know, I have read many times to reduce iron intake in Alzheimer's disease. I just know that eating a lot of beef seems to make me spaz more...

http://www.nutritionmd.org/health_care_providers/neurology/alzheimers_nutrition.html



Avoiding Excess Iron

Excess iron intake may contribute to Alzheimer's risk. Iron accumulates in the brain with aging, and evidence suggests that iron contributes to the beta-amyloid deposition, amyloid precursor protein, free radicals, and neurofibrillary tangles that characterize this disease. In addition, the brains of Alzheimer's patients appear to exhibit numerous defects in iron storage, binding, and mobilization not seen in the brains of healthy control participants.42 Evidence of the role of these ions in Alzheimer's disease is partly confirmed by previous studies43,44 and more recent investigations45 revealed improvement in Alzheimer's patients treated with chelating agents that remove excess aluminum, iron, and copper.
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Postby Merlyn » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:39 pm

If okay for AD, should be okay for MS.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=21263360

Getting the iron out : Phlebotomy for Alzheimer's disease?
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
DWYER Barney E. ; ZACHARSKI Leo R. ; BALESTRA Dominic J. ; LERNER Alan J. ; PERRY George ; XIONGWEI ZHU ; SMITH Mark A. ;
Résumé / Abstract
This communication explores the temporal link between the age-associated increase in body iron stores and the age-related incidence of Alzheimer's disease (AD), the most prevalent cause of senile dementia. Body iron stores that increase with age could be pivotal to AD pathogenesis and progression. Increased stored iron is associated with common medical conditions such as diabetes and vascular disease that increase risk for development of AD. Increased stored iron could also promote oxidative stress/free radical damage in vulnerable neurons, a critical early change in AD. A ferrocentric model of AD described here forms the basis of a rational, easily testable experimental therapeutic approach for AD, which if successful, would be both widely applicable and inexpensive. Clinical studies have shown that calibrated phlebotomy is an effective way to reduce stored iron safely and predictably without causing anemia. We hypothesize that reducing stored iron by calibrated phlebotomy to avoid iron deficiency will improve cerebrovascular function, slow neurodegenerative change, and improve cognitive and behavioral functions in AD. The hypothesis is eminently testable as iron reduction therapy is useful for chronic diseases associated with iron excess such as nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH), atherosclerosis, hereditary hemochromatosis and thalassemia. Testing this hypothesis could provide valuable insight into the causation of AD and suggest novel preventive and treatment strategies.
Revue / Journal Title
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Postby L » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:34 pm

I really went for it with iron chelation.

I started off by drinking a cup of green tea daily.

A month later and I started taking 'butcher's broom'. After a week I began to get the occasional palpitation. I have been prone to them for years and, ten years ago, cardiologists believed that it was potentially life threatening. I knew that caffeine and alcohol brought them on, the palpitations, so I cut out coffee, tea, beer and wine completely.

About the same time that as I began the butcher's broom I started drinking decaffeinated coffee (after ten years, my favourite drink tasted amazing!). And about a year ago I had started to drink the odd wine or beer now and again. Decaffeinated coffee still contains a little caffeine. This is what I put the palpitations following the Butcher's Broom down to.

Sorry this is such a long story :)

A week later I took a 'milk thistle' pill. Just forty minutes after I took it I got really bad tachycardia, a pulse of 220 I'd say, and I really should have called an ambulance because I felt dreadful and my girlfriend was really scared, but I'm too stubborn and I expected it to pass, which it did after an hour of lying on my bed and groaning. I put that down to a bad batch of milk thistle and/or the caffeine.

I cut out the butcher's broom, coffee and milk thistle and a few days later I tried an IP6 tablet in the morning. That evening I had another episode of tachycardia.

I drew a few conclusions.

I am middy anaemic (I am a vegetarian, after all.) I have a mild underlying cardiomyopathy worsened by anaemia resulting in palpitations and tachycardia. I have been told by a doctor that this is quite possible.

I discovered that alcohol in moderation chelates iron (although very large amounts deposit iron in the brain, and so does caffeine (studies show that a coffee drinker with MS had a slightly more favourable disease progression - interesting huh?) So perhaps, after ten years, I know why caffeine (which speeds a heart anyway) and alcohol cause me my problems.

I'd say that, in order of effectiveness, we have Milk Thistle as the best chelator of iron, then IP6, then the others except butcher's broom and lastly the daily cup of green tea (although I've no idea how six cups daily stand!)

Right now I can't find anything confirming for sure whether or not Butcher's Broom and Milk Thistle will cross the Blood Brain Barrier. IP6 (phytic acid), alcohol, caffeine and Green Tea cross it for sure.

I wouldn't be too surprised about my not checking whether or not Milk Thistle or Butcher's Broom cross the BBB before I started taking it (I've always been absent minded). If it does then I'd say that perhaps Milk Thistle is the most effective for our purposes. If not I'd say it was IP6. Then caffeine and then a moderate amount of alcohol.

Anyway, suffice to say that I am now trying to increase my intake of iron :( Pistachios, despite the saturated fat content, are very popular with me now, broccoli and lentils.. Incidentally, with all the pistachios, I now seem to be able to drink to my heart's content (literally.) The next step is to try decaffeinated coffee, perhaps even caffeinated coffee and maybe, just maybe, IP6..

I might even cross post this to a discussion on iron chelation in the 'General Discussion' Forum. Is cross posting ok or will I be fired?
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Postby Zeureka » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:45 am

Hi L that's very intersting thanks!

Would guess cross-posting OK - Noone to fire you for sure for such valuable input! :wink: :D
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Postby Merlyn » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:09 am

Newly emerging science has it that vein anomalies allow excess iron to pool in the brains of MS victims. Iron also over stores in the myelin sheath that covers all nerves irritating and causing them to fire unexpectedly. All MS patients should be screened for hemochromatosis or iron overload. The doctor
you take this information to will not have heard of it yet. You are not asking him or her to experiment, only to screen for iron and treat it when and if it is found. MS pts should go to our web pages on "Diagnosis", "Treatment" and "Diet" at: www.ironoverload.org .

Print out the diagnosis page and take it with you to your doctor's consult as not all doctors are up to date for iron.

Based on our experience with seizure disorders and Parkinson's, the brain responds wonderfully well to the de-ironing process and these symptoms were reversed. From our perspective, it may not even be necessary to have surgery to correct the vein anomalies. That discovering and treating the iron may be all that is necessary.

MS patients please call and let us know your successes an failures with this information at: 561-586-8246 as the research continues....

Steve Barfield - President
Iron Overload Diseases Assn.
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