Could herpes be causing CCSVI?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Could herpes be causing CCSVI?

Postby gainsbourg » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:02 pm

There seems to be no doubt now that treating CCSVI brings at least temporary relief for many with MS - but does CCSVI actually cause MS? Couldn't it just as easily be a by product of MS? Or maybe it's caused by the same thing - herpes.

There is ever increasing evidence that herpes is a major factor in the onset of MS, so could herpes also be causing the CCSVI (instead of CCSVI being the cause of MS)? A quick Google search suggested that no one seems to have looked for a link between herpes and CCSVI before, but I found a few suspicious connections:

1.The chicken pox variety of herpes (VZV) has long been known to cause vascular problems - particularly in the brain, e.g. cerebral thrombosis.

2. Herpes can sometimes attack the endothelium in blood vessels. A study by Nigel Key (1990) suggested that when the endothelium is infected with herpes it may "result in extensive FIBRIN deposition"

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/picrender.cgi?artid=217604&blobtype=pdf

3. FIBRIN deposits (specifically "fibrin cuffs") are thought by some to be the root cause of CVI e.g. Burnand et al (1982) or at least acknowledged as playing a key role e.g. Zamboni (2006)[/url]

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/461449-overview

In fact, just the mere presence of the herpes virus seems to be enough to cause venous problems. A lab experiment showed that there does not even need to be a productive infection in order for the virus to cause coagulation in the umbilical vein:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8390591

Yes, you read that correctly - in this instance herpes did not require productive infection to cause mischief! This could explain why they never seem to find evidence of an active herpes infection to back up the link between herpes and MS. Herpes antibodies were shown to rise by 542 times in the CSF (spinal fluid) during MS attacks, whereas all controls had no herpes antibodies in the CSF. (Sotelo 2007):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18306233


I think it's too early to assume that MS is simply caused by CCSVI, because if that is so - how do we account for all those herpes antibodies appearing in the CSF during MS attacks? It makes me wonder...




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Re: Could herpes be causing CCSVI?

Postby Rokkit » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:13 pm

gainsbourg wrote:It's popular these days to assume that MS is simply caused by CCSVI, but if that is so - how do we account for all those herpes antibodies appearing in the CSF during MS attacks? It makes me wonder...

The International uni0n of Phlebology studied the evidence and voted unanimously to include the venous malformations found in CCSVI in their consensus document and classified the malformations as congenital. So, CCSVI might not cause MS, but MS certainly doesn't cause CCSVI (neither does herpes).
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Postby ikulo » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:46 pm

I believe EBV is in the herpes family and has been shown to be prevalent in MSers. Could be EBV causing venous issues.
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Postby ndwannabe » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:56 pm

To return later.
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Postby zinamaria » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:06 am

This is very interesting. No time like the present to see if MS'rs can find the links. I had chicken pox as a child, and herpes, the one that attacks the mouth, and Mono back when I was in my twenties. Interesting that herpes has a vascular link, and that there have always been theories that MS is viral. Hmmm

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Re: Could herpes be causing CCSVI?

Postby patientx » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:28 pm

Rokkit wrote:[The International uni0n of Phlebology studied the evidence and voted unanimously to include the venous malformations found in CCSVI in their consensus document and classified the malformations as congenital. So, CCSVI might not cause MS, but MS certainly doesn't cause CCSVI (neither does herpes).


That's very democratic of the union, but I don't think it really settles what causes stenosis of the extra-cranial veins - especially considering these can be caused by venous catheters, among other things, which are not present at birth. And, if these are only congenital, why would Dr. Zamboni and his group be investigating possible viral causes of the venous stenoses?
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Postby Cece » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:49 pm

Dr. Dake, in his presentation at Hamilton, had a slide that showed possible causes of CCSVI. Congenital truncular was there, but he also had a number of other things...arachnoid formations and bone impingment on the vein...so what I understood from it is that while CCSVI is defined by the phlebologists as a truncular congenital vascular malformation, you can also acquire the same symptoms later in life from the various other ways for a vein's blood flow to be cut off...acquired CCSVI might need a different name than CCSVI, if all CCSVI is defined as truncular/congenital, but effects would be the same and treatment the same.

It also seems that if you already have CCSVI, of the congenital truncular nature, you could still then get an EBV virus or whatnot that mucks up your veins even worse and perhaps pushes your condition from subclinical into clinical.
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby PCakes » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:33 pm

I am aware that EBV is listed possible as causel or contributing to MS but with 80% (probably closer to 100%) of the populace exposed to and/or carrying EBV by their 4th decade..how can this be singled out?
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Re: Could herpes be causing CCSVI?

Postby Rokkit » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:59 pm

patientx wrote:That's very democratic of the union, but I don't think it really settles what causes stenosis of the extra-cranial veins

Yeah, you're right, I don't know why experts from 47 countries would even bother working up their consensus document. Who do they think they're kidding anyway.
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Postby ikulo » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:25 am

PCakes wrote:I am aware that EBV is listed possible as causel or contributing to MS but with 80% (probably closer to 100%) of the populace exposed to and/or carrying EBV by their 4th decade..how can this be singled out?


MSers may have a gene mutation caused by vitamin D deficiency in the early development that causes a reaction to EBV resulting in malformed veins. Non-MSers who do not carry this gene or don't have a mutated one aren't affected by the EBV in this way. I suppose one could find a person with CCSVI whose vein is caused by trauma or for example obstructed by a bony structure and compare to a person with a collapsed vein. The latter's venous malformation might be caused by such a gene, while the formers would not. Hope that makes sense, just hypothesizing.
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Postby ttt1 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:13 am

"When EBV infects during childhood, most often it causes no symptoms or only minimal problems that may appear like a routine viral infection. However, in teenagers and adults, significant symptoms may arise in 35-70% of newly infected"
http://knol.google.com/k/infectious-mononucleosis#
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Postby PCakes » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:24 am

CCSVI has been classified as a 'congenital' malformation by the International uni0n of Phlebotomists EBV would have no influence in this case. Given the high numbers of familial associations.. 'congenital' gets my vote.
p.s. i was diagnosed only 2 years ago and as recently as that the Neurological community was insisting that this was not and could not be a hereditary disease. I learned this by trying to talk to my neurologists about my mom and my sisters only to be told that this had no relevance??
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Postby gainsbourg » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:23 pm

I've only just discovered there was a similar TIMS thread to this one last July started by Rokkit:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7631.html

It contains some interesting stuff about how many people have noticed lymph nodes coming up around the time of the onset of MS.

Apparently Zamboni has also expressed interest in the possibility of a CCSVI/herpes link, but the neurologist who seems most convinced is Dr. Stephen Brenner:


I read the article by Zivadinov (1) with reference to the association of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) to gray matter atrophy in multiple sclerosis (MS) patients.

Accumulation of EBV infected B cells in meninges and perivascular regions of MS lesions in 21 or 22 patients with MS (2) was noted as well, indicating direct involvement of the brain and perivascular spaces by EBV in MS patients..

A recent study has indicated chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency with multiple extracranial venous strictures in MS patients (3).

EBV appears to infect endothelial cells (4), and may be important in the pathology of EBV virus.

EBV virus has been found to cause deep venous thrombosis in a patient with hereditary thrombophilia (5).

EBV may infect the venous endothelium causing venous thromboses and strictures in the cranial and spinal venous drainage system and perivascular regions of MS lesions in patients with MS.

http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/80/6/620/reply

In the long history of MS research nothing has been found to have such a consistent association with MS as the herpes viruses Varicella (VZV) and Epstein Barr (EBV) - even though they have failed to find evidence of active viral attack. Yet from the research I mentioned in my fist post above it seems that herpes can damage the endothelium of the umbilical vein without even a "productive infection."

If the same thing were to be happening when herpes is present in nerve cells, no wonder they never find evidence of active herpes viruses. Maybe when the immune system is low herpes (though dormant) acts like some kind of catalyst to stimulate the immune system into attacking healthy cells.

1. Stress affects the immune system
2. Stress affects cerebral blood flow
3. Stress frequently precedes MS attacks
4. Stress frequently precedes herpes outbreaks

......coincidence?
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Postby ndwannabe » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:16 pm

It does make sense. But this means that we are majorly out of hope until the cure for herpes is found...
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herpes and CCSVI-MS

Postby belsadie » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:45 am

Hi to all...
Here's a story for ya... As a child i had developed encephalitis[ my Mom called it "sleeping sickness"]after the mumps...viral? and then got awful "Kanker sores"...herpes
I was told that as a kid I always needed "alot of sleep" E-B virus?
I then developed shingles..... herpes? As an adult, I developed varicose veins on my legs.. Did the surgery release the virus? After surgery to correct this, I got Bell's Palsy...herpes? I then developed MS symptoms.My sister has RRMS[she's on Copazone] and has terrible herpes sores in her mouth I am convinced that there is a definite connection between the herpes virus family and MS.
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