Jugular Vein Obstruction caused by turning of the head--

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby PCakes » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:07 pm

Hello again,

If you have a bit of time.. check this out.. amidst some very very exciting news you will hear Dr. Godley comment regarding observations on 'head turning' during MRV .. very intersting.. and !!! This meeting was facilitated by 'Happy Canuck'..:)

So apparently only 50 minutes of Dr. Godley's announcement and Q&A recorded, but for those of you who missed it: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6081083
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head drainage

Postby 1eye » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:01 pm

Pulsation in draining blood is not gravity. Neither is it from the arterial side because they are not directly connected as far as I know. If it's pulsating, isn't it heart-driven, i.e. reflux? Does sound carry that well backward through draining vessels? Maybe I'm confused because reflux (on the Doppler on TV) was red, showing not that it was really red, but showing it was flowing the other way. Here studies with Doppler, MRI would really be interesting, but to prove the connection to MS, unnecessary and very harmful foot-dragging.
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Postby zap » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:43 am

cheerleader wrote:
zap wrote:another thing that occurs to me is that I breathe very shallowly/quietly while sleep - I wonder if this might also contribute, by not "priming the vascular pump."

(deep breathing promotes vascular return to the heart, although I'm not 100% sure if this is also true in the prone position).


Not sure on this correlation, Zap. Before Jeff's procedure he had severe sleep apnea--would wake up gasping for air, and he was a major snorer. Now, his breathing is quiet and regular and no more waking up, gasping. I think shallow, regular breathing is normal for sleep time--but I haven't researched this at all, so I have no facts to back this up. Both Zamboni and Dake's patients have noted better sleeping after their angioplasty.
cheer


Yeah, it's a half-assed idea of course, but nonetheless can't take Jeff's situation as a counter-example really since he clearly had a much more structural and non-transitory problem.

Anyway, if the breathing thing has any connection at all I would imagine it only to be one small factor in certain contexts, not a primary cause. I don't just not snore, I breathe so subtly when sleeping that partners have checked to make sure I was still breathing. :) I also feel like I don't breathe very well/deeply/efficiently when upright and awake. Anyway, it's a tangent from the head-turning, so nevermind ... sometimes I just wake up with notions in my noggin.
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Postby ndwannabe » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:28 pm

zap wrote: I don't just not snore, I breathe so subtly when sleeping that partners have checked to make sure I was still breathing. :) I also feel like I don't breathe very well/deeply/efficiently when upright and awake.


How very interesting! (following your tangent here) - the very same thing happens to me on BOTH accounts:

My husband says he sometimes has to bend over and listen to make sure I am not dead :lol:

AND

When awake I often catch myself wanting/making myself to take deep "belly-breath".
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new question

Postby frodo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:27 am

Given that only the "ipsolateral" vein gets closed, what do you think would be the better strategy while sleeping?

Supposing that the left vein is wrong, maybe would be wise to sleep with the head turned to the left, to have this vein closed and "switched-off" while the right fully working.

On the other hand, maybe would be good to keep the head straight so that the left vein works at least partially.

Which one of both behaviors would produce less reflux? I know that there is no study, but maybe we can guess.
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my guess

Postby hwebb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:34 am

hmm - my problems are much more severe in my left jugular. I noticed that whenever I woke in the night with "dead arms"...my neck or shoulder would be in some awkward position. The numbness would subside when I sat up, or rotated my arms around (like a rowing movement, through the shoulders). The majority of my "dead arms" syndrome could be avoided by sleeping on my back, with my neck straight. I achieve this by using a neck / travel pillow which stops my head from flopping around. I actually use the pillow upside down (so the open part of the "U" shape is pointed up, away from my shoulders) - looks strange but is very effective. I also use IBT. I swear this sleeping combo is the reason I got movement back in my neck (can now turn my head from side-to-side...used to be extremely stiff and couldn't turn).
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and more

Postby hwebb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:33 am

forgot to add that I was liberated. When I was recovering from the op, I felt sensitive when I turned my head to the right (even though it was the left side which was ballooned). I think some muscles press against my left jugular when i turn my head to the right.
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Re: Jugular Vein Obstruction caused by turning of the head--

Postby tuftyone » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:57 am

i came across this thread this morning. very interesting! i have a refluxing right jugular so should i tryto sleep with my head turned to the right or left?
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Re: Jugular Vein Obstruction caused by turning of the head--

Postby Cece » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:08 pm

tuftyone wrote:i came across this thread this morning. very interesting! i have a refluxing right jugular so should i tryto sleep with my head turned to the right or left?

Turning the head to the left should open up the right jugular more but might diminish the left jugular.
Turning the head to the right should open up the left jugular more but might diminish the right jugular.

The stenosis itself will not be affected by which way you turn your head. I don't think there's any way to answer your question, tuftyone. In general, you should turn your head to the opposite direction of whichever jugular carries the most flow, because that would allow that jugular to carry even more flow. Even though that right jugular is refluxing, it might still be carrying more flow than the left jugular.

In general, left jugulars aren't as good as right jugulars. So in general, people should sleep with their heads to the left to maximize the right jugular which is the better one (better because it's a little bigger and a little more of a direct flow route to the heart). But as individuals our patterns of stenoses is going to greatly affect the situation.

All of this is speculative. It's an interesting question.
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