Lancet Article

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby fogdweller » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:35 am

sofia wrote:also like to add.....i second gordon above. treat the ptients, time will tell


Unfortunately, time will not tell and that is the problem. Unless the studies are done properly and scientifically, the results of treatment will not be clear, and we will not really know anything one way or the other. Other scientists and doctors (esp. neurolotists) will not be convinced. Also insurance companies will not pay.

However, I agree with what Zamboni said in the recent panely web cast, if for some reason a patient is not appropriate for entry into any study, then there is no reason whatsoever for not diagnosing and treating that indivual.
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Postby malden » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:50 pm

sbr487 wrote:Couple of points:
1) Please see Rici's video. This is a real time unpolluted picture. It clearly shows blood flowing back as it tries to get past the narrowed vein and cannot. Due to pressure, it refluxes back.

2) The inflammation sites at mainly around the veins. So the iron must be depositing at that place.


AD1) I saw Rici's video. It doesn't prove you statement that blood is flowing back. All you can see is the moment when contrast solution is injected upstream and quickly and freely flow downstream the vein.

This so-colled reflux theory in vains is unexplaineble according to hemodynamics and hydraulic/phisic laws. Local turbulence is possible in places where cross section of the vain is changing, but global flow is allways downstream the presure line.

AD2) Even if this is true (The inflammation sites at mainly around the veins) iron deposits certainly can not be due to a possible narrowing of the veins in the neck. Osmosis and blood brain barier is something different issue and have not connection with blood flow dynamic in large veins.

M.
Last edited by malden on Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby PCakes » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:05 pm

..i disagree.. if this works.. empty clinics and time WILL tell.. and just like CCSVI ..it's just that simple.. i choose to leave convolution to the neuronation
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Postby Johnson » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:39 pm

This so-colled reflux theory in vains is unexplaineble according to hemodynamics and hydraulic/phisic laws. Local turbulence is possible in places where cross section of the vain is changing, but global flow is allways downstream the presure line.


Not necessarily. I have documented (Doppler) reverse flow in me jugs, and my cranio-sacral practitioner said that my jugs and carotids are in 'paradoxy" = pulsing simultaneously.

Rici's video is very short, and needs to be viewed a few times to really catch it, but you can see the reverse flow on exhalation.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby sbr487 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:17 am

Malden wrote:
sbr487 wrote:Couple of points:
1) Please see Rici's video. This is a real time unpolluted picture. It clearly shows blood flowing back as it tries to get past the narrowed vein and cannot. Due to pressure, it refluxes back.

2) The inflammation sites at mainly around the veins. So the iron must be depositing at that place.


AD1) I saw Rici's video. It doesn't prove you statement that blood is flowing back. All you can see is the moment when contrast solution is injected upstream and quickly and freely flow downstream the vein.

This so-colled reflux theory in vains is unexplaineble according to hemodynamics and hydraulic/phisic laws. Local turbulence is possible in places where cross section of the vain is changing, but global flow is allways downstream the presure line.

AD2) Even if this is true (The inflammation sites at mainly around the veins) iron deposits certainly can not be due to a possible narrowing of the veins in the neck. Osmosis and blood brain barier is something different issue and have not connection with blood flow dynamic in large veins.

M.


There is an X volume of blood being pumped out of heart. It needs to go through complex processing before it gets back to heart. Assume there is a choke point which impedes all the blood flow, what would happen?
Pressure would be created. This pressure has to be absorbed somewhere.
It cannot be absorbed in veins unless there is a puncture. So probably it gets settled around the veins.

I did not understand what you mean by, "can not be due to a possible narrowing of the veins in the neck". Because these are dead cells that are probably getting accumulated as they have nowhere else to go. This part has nothing to do with BBB. BBB comes into picture only when you have enough dead cell accumulation, the immune system starts the process of cleaning them up and in the process kills healthy brain and myelin (??) also ...
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Postby malden » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:26 am

sbr487 wrote:...Assume there is a choke point which impedes all the blood flow, what would happen?

Most probably death.

I did not understand what you mean by, "can not be due to a possible narrowing of the veins in the neck". Because these are dead cells that are probably getting accumulated as they have nowhere else to go. This part has nothing to do with BBB. BBB comes into picture only when you have enough dead cell accumulation, the immune system starts the process of cleaning them up and in the process kills healthy brain and myelin (??) also ...

Vains in the neck are far, far away from the brain arteries. No influence.

M.
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Postby sbr487 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:36 am

Malden wrote:
sbr487 wrote:...Assume there is a choke point which impedes all the blood flow, what would happen?


Most probably death.

I did not understand what you mean by, "can not be due to a possible narrowing of the veins in the neck". Because these are dead cells that are probably getting accumulated as they have nowhere else to go. This part has nothing to do with BBB. BBB comes into picture only when you have enough dead cell accumulation, the immune system starts the process of cleaning them up and in the process kills healthy brain and myelin (??) also ...

Vains in the neck are far, far away from the brain arterias. No influence.

M.


Actually, where does artery come into picture here?
The consumer of oxygenated blood, that is brain, sits in between artery and vein system. Anyway, there is no possible of blood flowing back to artery. But it can flow back to till the point where veins originate from brain. I dont know since only (for example assuming 80% average stenosis), 20% can flow out, rest 80% of the blood is blocked and accumulates over time.
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Postby malden » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:59 am

Actually, where does artery come into picture here?

Sry, mea culpa, lapsus calami, capillaries.

The consumer of oxygenated blood, that is brain, sits in between artery and vein system. Anyway, there is no possible of blood flowing back to artery. But it can flow back to till the point where veins originate from brain. I dont know since only (for example assuming 80% average stenosis), 20% can flow out, rest 80% of the blood is blocked and accumulates over time.


....no it can't flow back. Imposibile. Blood flow in veins can slow down or stop or have some local turbulence flow, but CAN'T FLOW BACKWARDS.

M.
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Postby sbr487 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:04 am

Malden wrote:
Actually, where does artery come into picture here?

Sry, mea culpa, lapsus calami, capillaries.

The consumer of oxygenated blood, that is brain, sits in between artery and vein system. Anyway, there is no possible of blood flowing back to artery. But it can flow back to till the point where veins originate from brain. I dont know since only (for example assuming 80% average stenosis), 20% can flow out, rest 80% of the blood is blocked and accumulates over time.


....no it can't flow back. Imposibile. Blood flow in veins can slow down or stop or have some local turbulence flow, but CAN'T FLOW BACKWARDS.

M.


I really dont understand. If I am pushing a liquid through a system, why can't it flow back due to pressure at choke point. The pressure due to stenosis will create reverse flow. Remember that blood is not being pumped constantly but in quantums of approx 72 times a minutes.
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Postby malden » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:58 am

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Postby sbr487 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:14 am



Flow is not steady but pulsatile


Use equations qualitatively


May reverse direction
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Postby malden » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:25 am

Flow is not steady but pulsatile
May reverse direction


Only in arterias.
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Postby Algis » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:38 am

CAN'T FLOW BACKWARDS


That is why we have valves in veins, right :roll:
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Postby AMcG » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:54 pm

I have videos of my veins taken in Poland on Sunday. They show backwards flow in both veins. But really have you never watched the flow of a river where there is an obstruction? Not all of the water can pass so some flows backwards, sometimes a long way. Also it flows more slowly and deposits rubbish on that side of the river. Have you never seen that? Never seen an oxbow lake? This process is exactly analogous to what is happening in CCSVI.
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Postby frodo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:20 pm

Malden wrote:
This so-colled reflux theory in vains is unexplaineble according to hemodynamics and hydraulic/phisic laws. Local turbulence is possible in places where cross section of the vain is changing, but global flow is allways downstream the presure line.



As a physicist I would like to know which hydraulic law you refer to. Keep in mind that a vein is flexible and normal equations like Laplace do not hold.
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