This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

Wow again, Cheer!
When do you eat? Thanks so much for your continuing work.
This vein quality issue is intriguing to me in that on my Maternal side, for as far back as I have information, several generations, there has been an 'inherited' leg vericous vein problem in many of the women. I do not have the leg vericous vein problem, but I had MS! I no longer have MS as I have been Liberated.
I have 3 maternal cousins with MS now. My mother and sisters had to have their leg vericous veins 'strippped' out at a relatively young age.
There is now suspicion that earlier generations of women had undiagnosed MS, with the history we have to piece it together. It makes sense.
None of this is on my fraternal side.
Just my 2 cents.
Sincerly, Rose2

Dr. Gabbiani again presented updated research on the collagen shift from type I to type III found in the jugular veins of pwCCSVI. Here is a great thread where we discussed this last year-----
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-11311-.html

This collagen shift is very, very important to understand. Collagen I is more pliant, Collagen III is stiffer, has more fibrin. It is found in scar tissue. Dr. Gabbiani believes the shift is from hemodynamic changes due to reflux and disturbed blood flow.


http://ccsvism.xoom.it/ISNVD/Abstract-Gabbiani.pdf

It is important to note that this exact same shift is found in varicose veins and chronic venous insufficiency



Type III collagen shift also shows up in VOC--veno-occlusive disease of the liver, like Budd-Chiari
link

Also important to note that collagen III is more often found in arteries, and not found in healthy veins. It provides stiffness and structure to arteries, and is also involved in thrombosis and arteriosclerosis. Dr. Lee mentioned in '09 in Bologna-he was surprised to learn collagen III could show up in veins.

I believe this is why people are seeing thrombosis and restenosis occuring more in CCSVI treatment than in other venous interventions. Because the collagen has shifted prior to intevention, and the vein is already more susceptable to injury. I harken back to Dr. Dake's first impressions of Jeff's veins..."I've never seen anything like these veins before."
cheer

_________________
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS

Now this really makes sense! Thanks for posting, cheer.

I asked this before, I think the answer was yes, if it is possible for the collagen to switch back to the healthier collagen 1 if good blood flow has been restored? My other thought is if it is throughout the jugular that this shift has occurred or if it is only at the area of stenosis? Has such a shift occurred higher up, such as in the deep cerebral veins?

I wonder if you are right and this turns out to be a factor in why people have restenosis and complications! Very interesting.

I love all the material coming out of ISNVD....

I'm also wondering if this is why the stenoses seem to progress. Some studies are correlating age and degree of disease progression with severity of stenoses. Could it be that the years of insult produced by reflux and altered hemodynamics resulting in slow, ongoing collagen shift is what accounts for the progression of CCSVI and MS?

Exactly right, Rokkit. We see this in cardiovascular disease, where disturbed blood flow changes the lining of the artery over time, and eventually leads to stroke or heart attack.

CCSVI is a progressive disease. Years of altered hemodynamics create hardened, stiff and stenosed veins. BUT, most likely, the venous malformation is there from the beginning. It is the altered flow + severity of VM + time which creates MS progression.

Cece, we don't know yet is venoplasty creates a switch back. Dr. Gabbiani and others will be looking at that. We do know that health shear stress and flow enhances endothelial function and allows for healing, but to what degree is just not known yet-
cheer

_________________
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS

It is interesting to me that collagen III is found in scar tissue. Last week I found out, much to my dismay, that the stent in my left IJV is completely occluded by scar tissue. I wonder if that means that the collagen at that location is/was collagen III. Dr Haskal told me that scarring can occur at stent sites. This scar tissue is almost impossible to drill through with a diamond tipped drill. I know of one other of Dr H's patients with exactly the same problem. Something to think about when considering stents right now. I have a neighbor who was a stent salesman (what a coincidence). He told me that the medicated stents are used to prevent this scarring.

ozarkcanoer

great read, thanks for the post and links

Didn't find a post about this, spent 20 min searching so don't shoot the messenger, this makes a great printout if you have the ink (I do). No, it's not a research paper, but a paper copy if you will of his powerpoint presentation, and very illustrative.


http://www.iset.org/files/content/event ... 142300.pdf

Just happened upon it while looking for good jugular venous return stuff. If it's already been posted, as most stuff on here has, I truly and sincerely apologize. Otherwise, I think it's relevant especially for those of us who are visual learners.

Mark

_________________
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap

With the right search words, you can find them from all the CCSVI presenters at ISET. It's not actually his presentation, it's the slides and whatever was turned in ahead of time to ISET, but they finish up their work on the presentations more at the last minute, so some of what is in these ISET files did not make it into the actual presentations. It is an IT error, I believe, that these were posted by ISET and made available in google search results like this. It's why I haven't linked to it directly before. Fantastic material. Did you see the tricuspid valve malformation? And the sideways valve, both in the venogram image and then cut out as an actual tissue sample? Remarkable.

fantastic !!!

CCSVI researchers are definately heading in the right direction!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I really dug it for the visual representations of things we discuss frequently, what you mentioned, the collagen III pics, and especially the visual on how/why the venous circles fill and in what order, plus the reminder that there is just a wee bit of leftover arterial pressure which adds to the venous pressure etc etc.

Was actually looking up stuff related to venous pressure when I found it.

Circulation, fluid dynamics, Starling forces, capillary beds, so intriguing and fascinating the interplay. Hopefully the current research will lead to entire new areas of investigation, esp. as it pertains to the BBB and the exact causitive forces behind it's breach (though of course it is inferred at this point via CCSVI).

More stuff to dump in my lunchbox...

(if you want another fascinating read, check out wiki about collagen, scleroproteins, and how they fold the hydrophobic portions to the inside and the structure becomes basically water insoluble, almost like bone. When I read of things like "a clot that a diamond tipped drill can't get through", seems like it ties in with this, as scleroproteins and their functions are what makes bone, muscle fiber, and other "permanent" matrixes what they are, and indeed may play a precipitous role in what we are seeing with scar formations and the aftermath of venous insults caused by stretching, tearing, stents and the like, maybe someday we will have something that can be tested and counteracted against in respect to the Collagen III in our veins, if even for a short time of proper healing?)

_________________
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap

There's so much to learn, I'm not there yet. The concept of Starling resistor was a new one for me from ISNVD. I've looked at the visual on the order that the venous circles fill or empty but don't have that grasped yet. The collagen III pics!! Those were impressive, you can see the difference, this is real what we are talking about.

Try searching for "Dake Iset PDF" or "Haskal ISET pdf"....

For those interested in the Dake ISET presentation: http://www.iset.org/files/content/event ... 075234.pdf

Great link, just blew through that one. Lots of great info and commentary. Thanks for the link..

_________________
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap