CCSVI - Pride and Prejudice

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Two Edged Sword

Postby FlashHack » Mon May 10, 2010 3:48 pm

Wouldn't blood thinners cut both ways in the presence of CCSVI? Sure blood might flow out a little better, but it seems to me that it would also more easily permeate the BBB depositing more iron where it should not be.

One of the open questions about Liberation is why RRMS patients see such a better response to the treatment. If blood thinners were the issue, then I'm not sure how you could explain this.
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Postby malden » Mon May 10, 2010 11:17 pm

I didn't say that contrast will keep your feet warm long ago after operation, I just pointed how contrast dye side efect is misplaced with immediately "liberated" experience.

But in the end, a blocked vein have noting with giving or not giving some oxigen to brain.

Best regards, M.
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Why bother to argue ??

Postby MarkW » Tue May 11, 2010 7:53 am

I am bemused that so many people discuss CCSVI with Malden, why bother?
He has the right to choose not have de-stenosis, if he has CCSVI.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Postby cheerleader » Tue May 11, 2010 8:04 am

Malden wrote:I am monitoring this forum, CCVCI theory, etc, about two months and didnt find any logical reason to support this theory and procedures to my half, still functional part of the brain.

Best regards, M.


Welcome, Malden.
Here are some effects one year after angioplasty for my husband, Jeff. I've been researching this now for 18 months with my non-MS brain--granted, it's probably less powerful than your 1/2 functioning part :)
Blocked veins can create slowed perfusion, and slowed mean transit time. The longer it takes deoxygenated blood to get out, the longer it takes oxygen to get in. Search hypoperfusion + multiple sclerosis. Lots there.

After one year--

no more sleep apnea, no more gasping for air at night, better sleep.
no more bladder urgency, allowing for full night of uninterrupted sleep
no more myclonic jerks or spasms during night, return of dreaming
(night time changes are due to the fact that the jugular veins are the only route for outflow of blood from the brain when supine--Jeff's were occluded 95% and 80% prior to angioplasty and stenting. Now they are 100% open, allowing for normal mean transit time)
no more heat intolerance, no more cognitive fog
much less fatigue--ability to work full day without naps
ability to exercise at high altitude (return to downhill skiing)
ability to exercise in heat (back to mountain biking)

We'll report back with new MRI/MRV results from Jeff's one year check-up at Stanford.
Time + scientific evidence is a powerful combo. More powerful than supposition or theories or anonymous posts on chat sites.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby cheerleader » Tue May 11, 2010 8:25 am

Here---
I made it easier to access:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7708.html
The hypoperfusion research.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Lyon » Tue May 11, 2010 8:36 am

.
Last edited by Lyon on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bossman » Tue May 11, 2010 8:38 am

That is fantastic news that your husband is doing so well, I am "patiently" waiting to be treated myself. Thanks for all you do on this site.
May God continue to bless you and your family!!

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Postby vivavie » Tue May 11, 2010 9:50 am

Most improved and most surprising (not considered symptoms before procedure):
- I have so much saliva that I sometimes feel sick to my stomach! (I had no saliva before and I thought it was the result of my previous tongue cancer - curietherapy + radiotherapy.)
- My bowel mouvements are now regular and easy: once a day. (It used to be once every 7 to 10 days, which I blamed the pain killer pills I take)

Those improvements were not expected hence can not be placebo effect!

Because of people like you I waited 14 days before talking and did not modify any of the medication I take (none are directly for ms anyway). By the way I did not have warm feet right after the procedure, it took almost 48hrs, now its on and off.

Reading you AMcG, I realise that I have a surge in pimples since Tychy and my body do smell very differently.
Happy mother'93, cancer survivor'95, angry ms'er'00 and... neuro daughter'63
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Postby malden » Tue May 11, 2010 1:01 pm

cheerleader wrote:...Blocked veins can create slowed perfusion, and slowed mean transit time. The longer it takes deoxygenated blood to get out, the longer it takes oxygen to get in....


Blocked veins can't create slower perfusion.

Perfusion is the process of nutritive delivery of arterial blood to a capillary bed in the biological tissue. No veines involved.
Only hart-arteria-arteriola-capillary and then delivery.

M.

Apendix for clarify "No veines involved."

Sometimes they are, but in only one case: if vein is closed, and there is no bypas, lateral or other paralel vein on the same branch. Which is not the case in jugular veins.
Last edited by malden on Wed May 12, 2010 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AMcG » Tue May 11, 2010 1:12 pm

Malden I think you really need to read a few of the articles referenced by Cheer.

When arterial blood has delivered oxygen to the brain it then has to return to the heart by the veins. If the veins are too narrow the venous blood backs up and stops this happening the result is a slowed transit time thru the brain which means less oxygen gets to the brain. This is called hypo perfusion. It does happen and is shown and measured in a number of published studies which are cited here:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7708.html.

Hope this helps.

Alan
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Postby cheerleader » Tue May 11, 2010 1:43 pm

Malden wrote:Blocked veins can't create slower perfusion.
Perfusion is the process of nutritive delivery of arterial blood to a capillary bed in the biological tissue. No veines involved.
Only hart-arteria-arteriola-capillary and then delivery.
M.


Absolutely incorrect. Veins are involved in perfusion.
in the heart- stenosis occurs in the pulmonary vein and perfusion is slowed.

Decreased Pulmonary Perfusion in Pulmonary Vein Stenosis After Radiofrequency Ablation*
Assessment With Dynamic Magnetic Resonance Perfusion Imaging

Conclusions: PVSs caused severe perfusion deficits, which were reliably demonstrated by MR perfusion imaging.

http://chestjournal.chestpubs.org/conte ... .full.html


In Budd-Chiari-venous stenosis creates slowed perfusion in the liver-

Regional enhancement differences that reflect the hemodynamic disturbance in the liver in patients with Budd-Chiari syndrome have been already known from observations on contrastenhanced CT [9]. Nonenhancement is an indicator of hypoperfusion, and hypoperfused regions are prone to severe damage due to anoxia.

http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/fu ... /1287#SEC2

I'll give you one more...Dr. Zamboni's most recent research:

Hypoperfusion of Brain Parenchyma Is Strongly Associated with the Severity of Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency in Patients with Multiple Sclerosis.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the relationship between chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency (CCSVI) and cerebral perfusion in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). BACKGROUND: CCSVI is a vascular condition described in MS patients, characterized by stenoses of the main extracranial veins with hampered cerebral venous outflow. We hypothesized that the impaired venous outflow contributes to hypoperfusion of brain parenchyma. DESIGN/METHODS: Sixteen consecutive relapsing-remitting MS patients (mean age 36.1yrs, mean disease duration 7.5yrs and median EDSS 2.5) and 8 age- and sex-matched normal controls (NC), were scanned on a GE 3T scanner using dynamic susceptibility contrast enhanced perfusion-weighted imaging (PWI). Cerebral blood flow (CBF), blood volume (CBV) and mean transit time (MTT) were measured in the gray matter (GM), white matter (WM), normal appearing (NA) GM, NAWM, thalamus, caudate, putamen, globus pallidus, hippocampus, amygdala, nucleus accumbens, red nucleus and substantia nigra. Diagnosis of CCSVI was established based on the venous hemodynamic (VH) Doppler criteria (Zamboni, JNNP, 2009) and the severity was based on fulfilled VH criteria (score 0-5) and VH insufficiency severity score (VHISS) (score 0-16). RESULTS: All 16 MS patients fulfilled the diagnosis of CCSVI (median VH=4, median VHISS=9) and none of the NC. There was a significant association between VH criteria and VHISS, and CBF, CBV and MTT in all examined regions of the brain parenchyma in MS patients. The most robust correlations were observed for lower CBF and higher VHISS in the GM, WM, NAGM and NAWM (r= -0.70 to -0.72, p<0.002), and in the thalamus, caudate, putamen, hippocampus, nucleus accumbens (r= -0.6 to -0.72, p<0.008). The correlation coefficients for CBV and MTT were in a range between r= -0.5 to -0.65. No relationship was observed for NC. CONCLUSIONS/RELEVANCE: This study demonstrates that severity of CCSVI is directly associated with hypoperfusion of the brain parenchyma in MS. Supported by: Hillarescere Foundation and Buffalo Neuroimaging Analysis Center.


Around these parts, most of us like to use research to back up our statements- and not use wikipedia for medical definitions.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby malden » Tue May 11, 2010 2:07 pm

"AMcG":

Malden I think you really need to read a few of the articles referenced by Cheer.

When arterial blood has delivered oxygen to the brain it then has to return to the heart by the veins. -correct
If the veins are too narrow the venous blood backs up and stops
-incorect - if there is a narrowing in the vein then blood speedup in narrowing and continue to flow toward hart; if there is a blockage in the vein then blood stops in this vein and flow increases in some other paralel vein and compensate closed vein.

this happening the result is a slowed transit time thru the brain
- wrong, transit flow (and time) in capilaries is constant. Nobel price in year 1920. is given for this discovery.

which means less oxygen gets to the brain.
- no, it doesn't means that.

...Alan
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Postby cheerleader » Tue May 11, 2010 2:15 pm

OK, I'm assuming English is not your first language...
but you're still wrong.
Please read the research I linked. Venous stenosis is linked to slowed perfusion (hypoperfusion) throughout the human body--in the heart, liver, kidneys and brain. I've discussed this mechanism with several vascular doctors and radiologists, and it's real.

I'm done on this thread. When posters do not read the research linked and continue to post without any of their own links to research, it doesn't make any sense to keep posting science- only to be answered with opinion. Even if it's written in red, it's still wrong.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby malden » Tue May 11, 2010 2:24 pm

cheerleader wrote:Veins are involved in perfusion.


Yes, they are, but in only one case: if vein is closed, and there is no bypas, lateral or other paralel vein on the same branch. Which is not the case in jugular veins.

M.
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Postby Shueywho » Tue May 11, 2010 2:33 pm

Thank you Cheerleader, I found the information to be very useful. Your time is appreciated. I have found myself to be more educated than many of the doctors my partner deals with and it's all due to following the links to the science provided by you and many others on here. So for this I thank you.

Keep up the good work all! It's of such use I can not even explain.
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