CCSVI - Pride and Prejudice

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Wrestling with pigs

Postby Gordon » Tue May 11, 2010 2:49 pm

Cheeer and other heroes

Just ignore this Malden guy. He joined just a couple of weeks ago. My father told me some time ago,

Wrestling with pigsjust gets you covered in Shit. Might even be that Rose character.

Thanks for your incredible help.

Gordon
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Postby bluesky63 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:29 pm

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Postby AMcG » Tue May 11, 2010 5:45 pm

Thanks for the links Bluesky.

I have looked at what Krogh said and it is interesting. He says that flow through a capillary is mostly constant although he does say it can slow down and stop. So capillaries turn themselves on and off or increase in diameter to cope with an increase in blood flow. But that when the blood is flowing the speed is pretty constant . He also says this is not driven by arterial pressure but some substance in the blood. And strangely “ very low venous pressure is sufficient to fill capillaries whose walls are flaccid, while the high arterial pressure cannot force entry into a contracted capillary.” So de-oxygenated blood can easily flow back into a closed capillary but the capillary will not open for arterial pressure at the other end.

Very interesting and I must admit I cannot see any obvious way how this would be effected by backed up blood in the veins. Back flow to a capillary would tend to make it open and therefore allow oxygenated blood thru (if it opened the whole length). Unless a capillary which is half full from the venous end tends to hold the other end shut. Krogh does not give a complete explanation of how the total flow of arterial blood is controlled.

It is mysterious then how hypo perfusion can occur in terms of what is happening in the capillaries.

So Malden in spite of your ungracious way of putting it you do seem to have a point. But my advice to you is still the same. Do what I have done and read the research paper that Cheer cited which shows that hypo-perfusion has been measured in the brains of MS patients. Then you can give us your opinion of what is going on there.

And this may be the last thing I will say to you. The people on TIMS have responded to you because they thought you were asking for help. They have given you honest opinions and honest accounts of their own experiences. They won’t continue to respond if all you do is piss them off.
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Postby bluesky63 » Tue May 11, 2010 6:01 pm

I would also tend to think that observable effects and research from skilled vascular professionals in 2010 would be more convincing to me than research from 1920, even if it did earn a Nobel prize. Everything continues to evolve.
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Postby eric593 » Tue May 11, 2010 6:17 pm

Very interesting. So does the big question continue to be whether the blockages cause problems then? Or does the repetition in the venous system compensate.

I wonder if it's only the people with cold feet to begin with that experience this surge of warmth or if it's everyone (which would lend credence to Malden's suggestion that it's from the dye and not an alleviation of the blockage).
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Re: Wrestling with pigs

Postby malden » Tue May 11, 2010 8:17 pm

Gordon wrote:Cheeer and other heroes

Just ignore this Malden guy. He joined just a couple of weeks ago. My father told me some time ago,

Wrestling with pigsjust gets you covered in Shit. Might even be that Rose character.

Thanks for your incredible help.

Gordon


Yes, that's the spirit, just ignore me and everything will be fine.

Unfortunatly for us, it will not be fine, and wrestling or not wrestling with pig like me doesn't keep you cleen of this MS Shit we all MS-ers are covered with.

And if that Rose you talking about have a MS, than I am exactly the same caracter like her. I can't help myself, my brain dissamilated.

M.
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Postby malden » Tue May 11, 2010 8:57 pm

Thanks for the links Bluesky from me to. I am terrible with links.

Sometimes I start to write something, and next moment I forget the whole story I was starting to write just few minutes ago.

AMcG, thank you for not ignoring me, I am not bad person at all, I just sometimes dont know/can't find right way to express myself. So many barieres in my mind (BBB, language barieres, fogg, etc. ;)

I see you are a clear thinker, so please keep your mind open and help me/you/us to lift some fog from this issue.

Thank you for taking a look at what Krogh said.

I appreciate your advice, and I will read research paper that Cheer cited on hipo perfusion again, and try to find where the catch is. On the first sight, conclusion are made from measuring global balance/flow in brain (mean values), but as i said, I'll read again and check.

The people on TIMS are right if they thought I am here asking for help. What else can be the reason I am here? I am not that much brain sick ;)

But I am not in politics and I am not trained to be polite and I am deeply sorry if my ungracious way "piss them off". That wasn't my intensions, my intensions are gooood.

Best regards,

M.
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Postby malden » Tue May 11, 2010 9:07 pm

eric593 wrote:Very interesting. So does the big question continue to be whether the blockages cause problems then? Or does the repetition in the venous system compensate.

I wonder if it's only the people with cold feet to begin with that experience this surge of warmth or if it's everyone (which would lend credence to Malden's suggestion that it's from the dye and not an alleviation of the blockage).


Thank you Eric593, "Rem Acu Tetigisti" - you got a point. That's what's on my mind when I am thinking about that.

M.
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Postby Johnson » Tue May 11, 2010 9:38 pm

I have sweaty feet and hands. I sweat profusely everywhere. I also have major stenoses x 2 bilaterally in my IJVs. I am deaf in one ear, going blind in two eyes. I am having trouble walking. I am more exhausted after sleep than before. I fall over a lot. I have difficulty speaking. I have difficulty thinking. I wash half of the dishes and then rest before completing them. I only make dinner once a week (used to do it x 7). I cannot play with my kid now. Reading and singing to him is difficult. I have had "MS" for 17 years. I will be treated in Poland in June for CCSVI. I expect it won't help me, because I have shitty "luck". I also am gambling $15K that it will help me. I am out of options, and out of time to wait. I will not experience a placebo effect. I will tell the truth after my procedure.

Malden, there is little point projecting your doubts here. If you believe that freeing the flow through your (possibly) constricted jugular veins makes sense, there is a wealth of information here that will bolster that belief, or not, and point you towards treatment options. There may be a few that share your skepticism, too. But really, sharing your doubts, will accomplish little (unless you seek argument). Many will try to convince themselves (and you - in the process), that CCSVI is a legitimate, and recognized (by the International uni0n of Phlebologists) venous pathology. Nobody can claim (yet) that it is the cause of "MS" (which is still unknown), nor that it is the cure (also, still unknown), but there is a fair bit of anecdotal evidence that many symptoms of "MS" are relieved after treating this recognized pathology. If you can/want to drop the $10K - $15K on treatment (and travel), you can prove it to yourself - either way. No one here can convince you (and really, are wasting energy trying), and conversely, few here are convinced by your doubt. Leave it at that. Your parade seems to have already been rained on, but there are many who just don't want their parades rained upon. Sometimes, it is better to hold your counsel (from a guy who does not...)

The options are; treat CCSVI, or don't treat it. There are the drugs, and stem cell treatments, etc., and if you want to pursue that, all the power to you, but most of us came here because CCSVI seemed a reasonable expectation. We have convinced ourselves (or not) by reading research, and our own intuition.

Peace, love, and groovyness.

By the way - I have noticed time and again, that International uni0n of Phlebologists is mis-spelled, but really weirdly, it changes itself to International uni0n ... by itself - even after I have changed it back to uni0n of... What is with that? See? I cannot type uni0n... It did it itself again!

International uni0n of Phlebologists... I give up. Damn you Microsoft!
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby AMcG » Wed May 12, 2010 3:26 am

Some speculations about:

Hypo-perfusion how can it occur?

1. Flow thru brain capillaries is constant. But flow of oxygen to the brain is continually changing.

2. Extra oxygen gets to the brain by opening more capillaries, or increasing the diameter of capillaries.

3. Arterial pressure does not ‘force-open’ a capillary.

4. Venous blood can easily open a capillary.

5. Therefore some mechanism(s) exist(s) which control(s) this and maybe the total amount of oxygen supplied to the brain.

6. 1st possible mechanism – level of oxygen in the blood in a capillary controls it’s tendency to open or close. The more oxygen the more the tendency to be closed. The less oxygen the more the tendency to be open. Obviously this mechanism would tend towards a middle-point – it would tend to ‘normalize’ flow thru the capillary. It does not account for why a capillary would be completely closed and stay closed or why it would open at all in the first place.

7. Krogh says this mechanism is driven by a chemical substance in the blood.

8. Something else then controls the overall volume of flow thru the brain which can turn on/off individual capillaries.

9. Flow needs to match the needs of the various brain cells (or sub-assemblies) which are continually changing. So the mechanism has to respond differently to different areas of the brain since not all areas will require the same amount of oxygen.

10. 2nd possible mechanism – sensors exist in the main veins in the head which monitor the level of de-oxygenation in the venous blood (like a lambda sensor in the exhaust of a car). This information is fed back and somehow controls the opening and closing of the capillaries.

11. If that mechanism is also responsive to venous blood volume then backed-up blood could have an effect .

This is as far as I have got. I have tried looking for evidence on the web and I have found some support for the idea but not a lot. I am far from convinced yet. But I am tending to think that what Krogh was describing is a local homeostatic mechanism and does not explain overall flow control thru the brain. So I do not think this is strong evidence against hypo-perfusion. If there are any real blood experts out there who know about this topic I would be very pleased to hear from them. In the mean time I will see what else I can find on the web.

Alan

P.S. Malden, what Not Johnson just wrote is excellent advice. There are other ways of convincing yourself apart from getting into complicated (though interesting) physiological problems.
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Postby malden » Wed May 12, 2010 4:41 am

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/articles/krogh/index.html

"...When the body performs work, this greatly increases its need for oxygen, especially in the muscles, but the question was where this increased oxygen supply came from. The capillaries had been known for 250 years. The conventional view was that they all stood open. It was assumed that the speed of blood flow increased during work. Krogh's mathematical calculations indicated that this could not be true. Faster blood flow through the capillaries hardly increased the potential for more oxygen supply, because the time for diffusion meanwhile decreased. Instead, Krogh elegantly and clearly demonstrated (by measurements of the oxygen content in capillaries and muscle fibers, direct observations and histological sections) that a relatively small number of capillaries are open during rest. In fact, capillaries are opening and closing all the time. During work, however, more capillaries are open. He also found that capillaries can vary in diameter and are thus independently contractile. Although the speed of blood flow through the capillaries is the same during rest and work, the oxygen supply increases because so many capillaries are open and each capillary can hold more blood...."

Thats from:

"Schack August Steenberg Krogh - A Versatile Genius"
The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1920

and his

"A Monumental Contribution to Research in Integrative Physiology"

Nobel Lecture, December 11, 1920:
"A Contribution to the Physiology of the Capillaries"

August Krogh was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1920 "for his discovery of the capillary motor regulating mechanism." During the 1939-40 Winter War between the Soviet uni0n and Finland, when the Danes began collecting money in support of Finland, August Krogh was urged to donate his Nobel medal, which was made of solid gold, for this purpose. He did so, but first he had his daughter Bodil Schmidt-Nielsen make a copy of the medal in silver, which was then gold-plated.
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Postby costumenastional » Wed May 12, 2010 5:47 am

Sorry not being able to throw a couple of scientific links in favor or against CCSVI. A theory that noone knows about its credibility. A theory that many scientists laugh at, while others dont.
Sorry for highjacking a "scientific" thread while i am not a scientist. But then again, i wouldnt have a clue even if i was a scientist. After all, who gave a shit about jugs and azygos so far?

So, i ve been reading like crazy about CCSVI. I believed. I needed to believe of course, while others dont. Thats cool..

I went to Sofia for liberation.

Coincidence 1: my optic neuritis was in my left eye. My left jug was the one most comprimised by anulus stenosis high and low. I am bored to write the official epicrisis in here.
2: all patients were found to have CCSVI. Its severity (coincidental) was related to MS severity. Most if not all patients in a wheelchair have had such serious blockages that balloon angioplasty was not enough. Self expanding stents HAD to be placed except if the patient had told that he/she didnt want stents.
3: Pmouse (and i hope he will forgive me for speaking on his behalf) was found to have a totally blocked jug. All his 25 brain lesions were on that side of his brain.

I could keep writing but noone will take me seriously so... But i was there. I saw with my own eyes (mostly with my right one).
For me, all these mean that getting liberated was a very good move. I would never imagine to let my veins be stenosed or twisted. I need to know that my blood goes only towards my heart when it s in the veins and no reflux occurs whatsoever.
Some people seem to think of veins like simple plumming. "When the blood finds a stenosis it goes faster and goes through". Or, " the problem is only when there is no bypass available. Orelse the blood finds its way home via collateral pathways". We know, thank you!
Sounds like someone has been wondering inside veins and knows exactly what happens in case of stenosis. I wish they study ccsvi in microcelular level someday. For the time being they only have xrays and dye. And noone can convince me that he knows what an even tiny blood reflux can trigger.

After treatment, the doppler showed 5mm min width for the left and 4,3 for the right jug. It sure beats 0.03 and 0,3 pre op. Better safe than sorry kind of thing. Open veins versus mangled veins. Is there really a question?

One more thing for all those who believe that having blocked veins is normal. During balloon dilation the pain was terrible. But you know what???
I loved it cause when i felt the pain, i remembered that i had small pains in the same places for years. I just didnt know why.
Can one feel the vein blockage? Yes, he can. Is it normal to feel any kind of pain when everything is good? I dont think so.

The risks involved are MINIMAL. Only thing i cared during the operation was for the surgeon to find something to fix. And he did. As i have said 1000000000 times, everyone should stop talking and do it. Who knows? Maybe something good will happen.

With all respect, i dont think i should trust someone who won the Nobel back in the 20s. Like i dont trust Putnam's research.

There is a link between CCSVI and MS. This is a fact. Will liberation stop MS? uuummm well, is there anything out there that does?

Open your veins people. Dont trust anyone who says the opposite.
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Postby bluesky63 » Wed May 12, 2010 5:58 am

One compelling aspect that needs to be taken into account is the collateral networks that develop -- these networks are thought to develop in response to the blocked blood flow. How else would you explain the collateral networks? They exist, and I have read dramatic accounts of the collateral networks no longer filling once the stenosis is addressed.

Sorry -- coming back for an edit -- Krogh's theory is also assuming, of course, that the entity has normal blood vessels (and normal blood, and normal blood clotting). Not all of us do. We have been discussing, in other threads, the discovery of genetic defects associated with vascular malformations. I could see how this could go down to the level of the capillaries and affect even the tiniest vasculature, disrupting the flow on every level. So Krogh's findings would not necessarily work for people who are not physiologically "normal."
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Postby malden » Wed May 12, 2010 6:28 am

"AMcG" : Some speculations about:

Hypo-perfusion how can it occur?

1. Flow thru brain capillaries is constant. But flow of oxygen to the brain is continually changing.
I agree, blood flow to the brain is continually changing, depending on changing in hart rate.
2. Extra oxygen gets to the brain by opening more capillaries, or increasing the diameter of capillaries.
Hm... when you start workout (running...etc) your tissue need more oksygen and food. Blood rate icrease, flow through arterias and arteriolas inrease, but flow through capillaries must remain constant, and to accomplish this additional capillaries open and/or increase diameter.
3. Arterial pressure does not ‘force-open’ a capillary.
I agree
4. Venous blood can easily open a capillary.
I disagree... How? Wherefrom?

Best regards,

M.
malden
 

Postby sbr487 » Wed May 12, 2010 6:46 am

Malden wrote:
cheerleader wrote:...Blocked veins can create slowed perfusion, and slowed mean transit time. The longer it takes deoxygenated blood to get out, the longer it takes oxygen to get in....


Blocked veins can't create slower perfusion.

Perfusion is the process of nutritive delivery of arterial blood to a capillary bed in the biological tissue. No veines involved.
Only hart-arteria-arteriola-capillary and then delivery.

M.


In a systematic closed loop system, to think that a bottleneck in one of the subsystem (veins in this case) does not have a cascading effect backwards is really laughable. If one were to extrapolate this argument, it would mean that fluid delivery would go on even in the absence of veins ... WOW that would be really great ... wireless veins if I may say so ...
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