Diagnostic Equipment and Zamboni

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby concerned » Fri May 21, 2010 10:04 am

"Jamming a Cathater" was hyperbole. Are you saying that Zamboni didn't know if the patient he was diagnosing had MS or not?


If people having vested interest through "Big Pharma" discredits their work, what about "Big BioMedical"?
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Postby BooBear » Fri May 21, 2010 10:18 am

Concerned, I am now wondering what it is you are really "concerned" about. Are you concerned that this may be another red herring in our quest for a cure? If so, then I am not sure what any of us can provide for you to make you any less uncertain in your convictions. You have to do what we did- research, question, learn, research some more.

A vested interest through Big Pharma does not automatically discredit someone in my eyes. Most neuros have some vesting from Big Pharma, because up until now that was all that was available. But when someone incorrectly defines, explains, or "poo poos" CCSVI without presenting any evidence - scientific, that is- of their own, then you do have to wonder about the motivation.

For the record, in 2007, the following was spent to treat MS patients:
- Avonex: $1.9B
- Rebif: $1.7B
- Betaseron: $1.4B
- Copaxone: $1.7B
- Tysabri: $1B

Nearly $8B to treat a disease that effects 500K in the U.S. (approx.). I gotta tell you- I don't see anyone making $8B of a "specialized" testing machine, especially when a specialized machine wasn't used to diagnose CCSVI in the first place. But even if one is developed, and EVEN if Dr. Zamboni markets it himself, I wouldn't care one fig if it was the real deal. That's like saying that someone who invents the cure for cancer should be doubted if he stands to make a buck. If it's a cure, who cares?? Hell, if it fixes me, I would gladly send him some dough. I'd do the same for pharma if that were the case- oh, yeah- I already sent them a lot of money over the years and have nothing to show for it. :)
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Postby Cece » Fri May 21, 2010 10:31 am

concerned wrote:"Jamming a Cathater" was hyperbole. Are you saying that Zamboni didn't know if the patient he was diagnosing had MS or not?

There was a diagnostic study where he used a Doppler on people with MS, without MS, and with other neurological disorders (so that it wasn't obvious who had MS and who didn't) and with a Doppler he found CCSVI in 100% of the MSers and 0 in everyone else. The study was peer-reviewed and published.
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby Trish317 » Fri May 21, 2010 10:31 am

Would anyone have ever begrudged Thomas Edison, or Alexander Graham Bell, financial gain for their inventions? Just a thought.....

I agree with what BooBear said. If Dr. Zamboni has a vested interest in any equipment used to diagnose or treat CCSVI, and it's the answer to my darling man's PPMS, I'll send him a portion of my paycheck every week for the rest of my life. Hell, I'll send him my first born child. Although, he's 37 so he might have something to say about it. :lol:
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Postby BooBear » Fri May 21, 2010 10:38 am

Trish317 wrote:Hell, I'll send him my first born child. Although, he's 37 so he might have something to say about it. :lol:


LOL! I love it.
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Postby concerned » Fri May 21, 2010 10:39 am

Well i don't want my mother to get her hopes up for nothing is all. People here on the board (and my mother as well) talk about how anyone who says anything questioning claims made about ccsvi is a shill for big pharma, because big pharma has a financial interest in selling pills. Nevermind the zaniness of big pharma conspiracies (i know that all corporations are bad and just looking for money, that's capitalism for you and should come as no surprize!) but if we assume that's true, isn't someone who has an interest in selling biomedical equipment have just as much invested?

Whatever, that's all the internets groupthink i can take for a while.

Over and out folks.

(p.s. to the poster who alluded to inconsistencies in my not citing sources at the same time as endorsing real science - arguments on internets BBS's have very little, perhaps even nothing to do with science. also, I am not a scientist. This doesn't not mean i cannot demand that the scientific method is used by scientists. I don't drive a car, but i still hope people follow the rules of driving and feel perfectly entitled to critique them should the not follow the rules and say, kill a toddler. i don't think that this makes me a hypocrite.)
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Postby BooBear » Fri May 21, 2010 10:49 am

concerned wrote:(p.s. to the poster who alluded to inconsistencies in my not citing sources at the same time as endorsing real science - arguments on internets BBS's have very little, perhaps even nothing to do with science. also, I am not a scientist. This doesn't not mean i cannot demand that the scientific method is used by scientists. I don't drive a car, but i still hope people follow the rules of driving and feel perfectly entitled to critique them should the not follow the rules and say, kill a toddler. i don't think that this makes me a hypocrite.)


First of, concerned, I pray for your mother as well as all of us. Hope is a good thing.

As I was the poster you mentioned, I will address your concerns with the latter. I did not claim to hold messages on a board as scientific evidence. But read the studies- really, really read them. They are peer reviewed. They are supported by other research studies and more are to come.

My point was just that to hold onto something that is a mere allegation at this point (Dr. Zamboni's interest in a yet-to-be-developed "specialized" testing device) to discredit this theory is no better than putting all your faith in a message board. If there are things that you have read that seem to be credible, we'd all want to see and understand those things. So, do the work and cite your sources so we can all benefit- including your mother- and we promise to share the same sorts of things (and have) for you both as well.

God bless!
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Postby Trish317 » Fri May 21, 2010 10:53 am

concerned wrote:Well i don't want my mother to get her hopes up for nothing is all.


I completely understand how you feel about hope. For the first time since his diagnosis, in June 2007, my darling man has hope. Over the last three years, as his condition has deteriorated, he's just had resignation. I, on the other hand, started researching the day he told me the diagnosis, and have always had hope.

But, I've watched him go back and forth between being happy and not wanting to hope too much.

He sees his new neurologist, for the second time, on Monday and will get the results of an MRV that he had at the beginning of the month. I've already told him that even if it's negative, we aren't giving up. Last week he said "We'll get there, my dearest woman....together." Yesterday, he told me I should leave him....well, he said I can't win and I should do the "rational, adult human being" thing.

Believe me, I know the fine line between hope and despair. I'm sure everyone here does. My prayers go out to you and your mom.
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Postby concerned » Fri May 21, 2010 11:01 am

BooBear wrote: something that is a mere allegation at this point (Dr. Zamboni's interest in a yet-to-be-developed "specialized" testing device) to discredit this theory


i'm not saying that to discredit ccsvi. only real scientific studies will do or not do that. i was more enquiring into the line of reasoning that dissenting or critical views are all made by shills for big pharma, and that say, Freedman is getting more money from big pharma to be critical than Zamboni stands to gain from CCSVI is all. My mother believes this because she reads these boards and people here seem to use alot of mere allegations to discredit everyone else. (Colin Rose has no knowledge of anatomy, says my friend who's a doctor, so he's a moron! and that kind of reasoning.)
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Postby cheerleader » Fri May 21, 2010 11:38 am

OK...Concerned, really it's not that big of a deal. If you're worried about your mom, and you want to, you can get her veins checked or not. Either she will or will not have a problem. It's really as simple as that. I took Zamboni's research to Stanford for my husband and wrote about it. He had severe stenosis, he's a year out and doing well. Case closed. I was merely trying to show you how to search for a doctor's disclosures, if you were concerned that he was being paid. You can do it with any doctor, as you've shown us with Dr. Rose.

Wish you all well-- Time to take my beloved husband's advice and let time and science do the rest-
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby tazbo » Fri May 21, 2010 11:53 am

Wish you all well-- Time to take my beloved husband's advice and let time and science do the rest-
cheer

Not that you don't deserve your own life...but I sure feel comforted by having you doing all you do.
Thank-you Joan...
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Postby Johnson » Fri May 21, 2010 11:56 am

I can simply never resist.

concerned, I just wonder why you are concerned about Zamboni's putative financial interest in ultra sound equipment. I was diagnosed with CCSVI on a Philips machine. In fact, my cranio-sacral MT identified the blockages in my jugulars well before I was scanned. Are you concerned that there might not be a viable treatment for your mother in the Liberation paradigm?

I'm just giving my own impression, but I thought that your initial question was a thinly veiled impugning of Zamboni, and by extension, the theory behind it all. What really is the point to your inquiry? I have an idea - put up a poll, such as "Do you care whether Dr. Zamboni has a financial interest in an ultrasound innovation? Do you think that Zamboni might have just made this all up so that he can make some money? Do you feel that Zamboni has offered kick-backs to other researchers who don't use his equipment if they skew research results so that they can make some extra money?"

This is not an IRS board, nor an investment board, and it seems that most here hope that Zamboni is right, and further, would like to see him richly rewarded financially for finally bringing us the possibility of not having misery until we die. Some people who have been treated actually say that he is right. They have said that they are cured. Gasp. Ought we be concerned that Zamboni might have shares in the airlines that will fly us across the seas to receive treatment? Cripes, Dr. Simka might have shares in the Qubus Hotel, and is only doing the treatments to get us all in there.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby concerned » Fri May 21, 2010 1:20 pm

Dr. Zivadinov said : "the deep cerebral structures are very difficult to determine if not [performed] with some specific technology that Dr. Zamboni actually developed and is now commercializing."

-the medical post Volume 46 NO. 8 May 4, 2010
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Postby scorpion » Fri May 21, 2010 1:50 pm

"More specialized imaging equipment, which Dr. Zamboni has developed and is working with a company to commercialize, could find additional people with the condition, said Dr. Zivadinov."


http://www.nationalpost.com/m/story.html?id=2907474
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Shit!

Postby BELOU » Fri May 21, 2010 1:57 pm

Does it mean that's the placebo effect :wink:
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