venous valves

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: venous valves

Postby ljelome » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:17 am

Dear dr. Sclafani,

Thank you for your respond. I know u haven't known met yet. If it were possible for me to go to your place, then i would do it, but i can't. Is it possible if i send u all my information, all my lab tests, all my Doppler USG result through email. Then you could examine it for me?

I wished to contact you earlier, but it turned out that you are the one who contact me first.

Please notify me, if my wish is possible to do. Can i have a consultation with you through this forum or maybe via your email?

Thank you again for your time.

Warm regards,
Linda
Warm regards,
Linda

|For the joy of the Lord is your strength | A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones| God always leads us to where we need to be, not where we want to be|
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Re: venous valves

Postby NZer1 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:25 pm

Dr S have you tried Skype interviews?

I set up using them for the CPn protocol patients with our 'only' Specialist here in NZ and it works well. Payment system works well without glitches so far ;).

Naturally there are things that can and can't be achieved, and maybe it is a step in the direction that will save some of the Travel stress.

Nigel
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Re: venous valves

Postby vesta » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:26 pm

Cece wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6460930
Morphol Embryol (Bucur). 1981 Jul-Sep;27(3):195-214.
Data regarding the typology and functional significance of the venous valves.
Maros T.

Certain findings suggested a reorganization after birth of the venous valves which are frequently met in fetus. The close relation between hemodynamic mechanisms and the blood guiding structures may explain the changes (disappearance or persistence) of venous valves in some areas after birth.

I thought this was interesting. We've talked about the malformation of internal jugular vein valves as happening during embryological development. I had never heard about changes in the valves occurring after birth. What sort of changes? "Disappearance or persistence"? How could a valve disappear?


NZer1 “Maybe there this a connection, CPn/Valve dysfunction?

The diseased cells, dysfunctional cells, hardened valves may have been scared by the infection/inflammation process over time? Pre-birth and Post birth!”

Dr Sclafani Jan 31, 2013
“if the valve is obstructed, generally what happens is that the vein above the stenosis starts to dilate or enlarge. Slow flow or stasis (absence of outflow) occurs. This leads to reduced arterial inflow, poorer perfusion with oxygenated blood into the brain and reduction in cerebrospinal fluid drainage and possibly hydrocephalus. Additionally, when the muscles of the neck contract, they MAY cause the pressurization of the blood within the vein. In the presence of obstruction toward flow into the heart, this blood may jet into the skull and injure deep cerebral veins.”

It is gratifying to see some of my observations confirmed by the professionals. 1) Phlebologists long have believed vascular disorders are congenital in origin. Now it appears valve problems can develop after birth, in other words, they may be developmental in origin. (See Cece) 2) I believe my entry of December 24, 2012 changed the discussion, opening the possibility that blood flow problems may be a consequence of cerebrospinal fluid pressure ON the vein rather than a defect IN the vein, a type of MS I defined as Skeletal. 3) Muscle tension may impede blood flow leading to the blood reflux, a condition which may fall under the rubric of Toxic MS. 4) I’ve decided to split up Toxic MS into 2 types, Infectious and Toxic, both of which may be factors in Developmental vein damage and/or muscle tension.
Thus I define 6 MS types as follows/
1) Congenital
2) Developmental
3) Infectious
4) Toxic
5) Aging
6) Skeletal

I have discussed Developmental MS in detail in my main paper in the site MS Cure Enigmas.net. Chinese Medical theory and practice provided some answers to the epidemiological factors defining MS incidence. Western medicine will have to catch up. But for now this ancient practice based on thousands of years of observation can point to effective treatment.
Both Infectious and Toxic MS may be factors in childhood Developmental MS. Chlamydia Pneumoniae (Cpn) is an example of Infectious MS which may have damaged the vascular system during childhood development, and/or may still be active. This is apparently an issue with NZer1 (Nigel) on Thisisms.com. Other illnesses often associated with MS are Epstein Barr, Mononucleosis and perhaps Lyme disease? Earlier I had included these infections under Toxic MS since they doubtless stress and tense up the organism, but they may well directly damage the veins themselves adding to the severity of the disease (and perhaps further complicating the treatment.)
I believe the toxins in Toxic MS tense up the muscles as they stress the organism. Once the toxins are identified and eliminated, this form of MS is the easiest to cure. Toxins may include mercury in amalgam fillings (see want2bike), aspartame, and food intolerances such as glutens.
Aging MS speaks for itself.
SKELETAL MS: A misaligned skeletal, bone or dental structure can actually restrict the free flow of cerebrospinal fluid which in turn can compress or impede venous blood circulation. Structural problems can be either congenital or developmental in origin (e.g. accidents.) Recent scientific studies have focused on the interdependent dynamic of brain "fluids", the blood and the cerebrospinal fluid (CBF) which bathes the Central Nervous System. Excess cerebrospinal fluid can actually "compress" or limit blood circulation, hence the interest of Chiropractors in adjusting the Atlas bone to assure proper CBF circulation. If the problem is SKELETAL, angioplasty would not be appropriate. In this case it is not a problem INSIDE the vein but OUTSIDE. Chiropractic, Osteopathic or Dental adjustment may suffice to release the brain fluids flow

I do not oppose Angioplasty as some might think. I believe however that all these factors should be considered before intervention. The main problem now is political, that is to say the power of the big pharma and neurology lobby to block CCSVI and other treatments for MS patients. Dr. Sclafani has doubtless pioneerede the skills and techniques necessary to maximize positive angioplasty outcomes. But he can’t treat everybody for everything. Maybe Angioplasty isn’t the answer for someone who needs spinal/dental adjustments or someone who needs to remove toxins from his body. Or someone like me whose nerve damage is probably too established to heal.

My purpose here is to help people think things through and to suggest alternative therapies which I’ve found effective.

See MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: venous valves

Postby Cece » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:00 pm

ljelome, do you have an MS diagnosis?
Did your sonographer have an explanation for why the right jugular had slow flow?
I had abnormal valve blockages in both my jugulars. My left jugular had slow flow but my right jugular had extra-fast flow.
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Re: venous valves

Postby ljelome » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:34 pm

Dear Cece,

Yes, i had an MS diagnosis just based on my MRI scans only, there's numerous lesions found on my brain n cervical and also i had numerous symptomps matched to the MS symptomps. But i didn't have a lumbar puncture test coz it can't be done here. So the sample has to go to America n mostly it turns out negative, coz maybe it's been damaged on its way. So my neurologist didn't prefer me to do that test.

My sonographer couldn't see valves in both my jugular. He didn't know why. For the slow flow in my right IJV, my sonographer just told me that maybe there's a blockage in the upper part of the vein connected to the IJV. But my sonographer didn't check my Deep Cerebral Veins yet, coz he didn't know how to do it yet. And my left IJV seems to have a normal flow.

Only the hyperacceleration noticed in my both CCA (arterial flow not the venous), but he didn't explain why.

Well, i hope that's answer your question.

Thank you.

Warm regards,
Linda
Warm regards,
Linda

|For the joy of the Lord is your strength | A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones| God always leads us to where we need to be, not where we want to be|
ljelome
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Re: venous valves

Postby ljelome » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:16 am

Dear All,

Pardon me, but my questions haven't been answered yet. I wonder:
1. What happen if both your IJV doesn't have any valves? (for what ever reason, birth defect, infections, and so on).
2. Will "no valves condition" cause reflux in your IJVs when you're doing valsava maneuver?

Oh yeah, Dr. Sclafani, when you said :

"if the valve is obstructed, generally what happens is that the vein above the stenosis starts to dilate or enlarge. Slow flow or stasis (absence of outflow) occurs. This leads to reduced arterial inflow, poorer perfusion with oxygenated blood into the brain and reduction in cerebrospinal fluid drainage and possibly hydrocephalus. Additionally, when the muscles of the neck contract, they MAY cause the pressurization of the blood within the vein. In the presence of obstruction toward flow into the heart, this blood may jet into the skull and injure deep cerebral veins."


My questions to you are :
1. Does "having no valves in my both IJV" could be categorized as a "valve obstruction" as described above?
2. What activities that makes my neck contract ? Is it a valvasa maneuver-like activities ?

Thank you for your explanation again.

Pardon me again, if my questions sound silly. But help me to understand about MS n CCSVI.
Thank you.
Warm regards,
Linda

|For the joy of the Lord is your strength | A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones| God always leads us to where we need to be, not where we want to be|
ljelome
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Re: venous valves

Postby Cece » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:04 am

About 10% of people have no jugular valves. People who get sudden global amnesia are more likely to have absent jugular valves, but that amnesia is rare and the vast majority of people with no jugular valves do not get it.

CCSVI is relatively difficult to diagnose. There hasn't been as much agreement as you'd expect between what's seen on ultrasound and what's seen during an actual procedure. I would not put too much stock in a report of no jugular valves or no stenoses if the doctor is not experienced in CCSVI. The problem is that there is no experienced CCSVI IR there.

For me, I had my jugular valves ballooned, so with any luck I now have wide-open jugular veins with no valves. (My valves weren't functioning to begin with, so this is not a loss.) Yes, I would expect that there would be backflow reflux from the heart if a valsalva is done, but as soon as the valsalva is over, the flow would go forward again. Prior to the procedure, the flow could not get out of the jugulars easily. So the condition of no jugular valves is better than the condition of abnormal jugular valves that are blocking the way.

Not sure if any of that is helpful. I am trying to be!
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Re: venous valves

Postby ljelome » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:47 am

Dear Cece,

Thank you for your very helpful information.

Well, i don't have any other choice here, i'm not prefer to do an invasive exam so as my IR recommended. But my sonographer is the best in Indonesia, so he admitted.

Maybe my case could become an example for other pwMS here in Indonesia if it turns out i have CCSVI. So i'm very hopeful that my sonographer can follow the procedure in examining CCSVI using Doppler USG based on Zamboni protocols and dr. Karen Marr's video on how to do the procedure. I believe in him though he is very lack of experience in CCSVI examination, but i think he still can help me. (Oh help me Lord)

Thank you again for sharing. GBU.
Warm regards,
Linda

|For the joy of the Lord is your strength | A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones| God always leads us to where we need to be, not where we want to be|
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Re: venous valves

Postby Cece » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:17 am

ljelome wrote:Maybe my case could become an example for other pwMS here in Indonesia if it turns out i have CCSVI. So i'm very hopeful that my sonographer can follow the procedure in examining CCSVI using Doppler USG based on Zamboni protocols and dr. Karen Marr's video on how to do the procedure. I believe in him though he is very lack of experience in CCSVI examination, but i think he still can help me. (Oh help me Lord)

You have my prayers too.
With the sonography, he looked very low on your neck? It's almost behind your collar bone, it's so low.
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Re: venous valves

Postby vesta » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:53 am

Cece wrote:About 10% of people have no jugular valves. People who get sudden global amnesia are more likely to have absent jugular valves, but that amnesia is rare and the vast majority of people with no jugular valves do not get it.

CCSVI is relatively difficult to diagnose. There hasn't been as much agreement as you'd expect between what's seen on ultrasound and what's seen during an actual procedure. I would not put too much stock in a report of no jugular valves or no stenoses if the doctor is not experienced in CCSVI. The problem is that there is no experienced CCSVI IR there.

For me, I had my jugular valves ballooned, so with any luck I now have wide-open jugular veins with no valves. (My valves weren't functioning to begin with, so this is not a loss.) Yes, I would expect that there would be backflow reflux from the heart if a valsalva is done, but as soon as the valsalva is over, the flow would go forward again. Prior to the procedure, the flow could not get out of the jugulars easily. So the condition of no jugular valves is better than the condition of abnormal jugular valves that are blocking the way.

Not sure if any of that is helpful. I am trying to be!


I can open the blood flow through a neck massage of the neck forcing the blood down towards the heart. Also self acupressure and especially swimming opens the blood flow. I wonder if I have "sticky" valves which can be opened using these techniques. At some point the valves might fuse shut at which point I would definitely need angioplasty (an example of Aging MS?) to open them up. I wonder if this is what happened to Annette Funicello who developed MS at age 45? In any case I need to keep the blood flowing.
MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: venous valves

Postby Robnl » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:15 pm

Hi Vesta,

You mentioned swimming; i can not walk without help. when i 'walk' to the pool supported by 2 persons (left/right) it's very difficult to go into the pool. After walking around in the pool for an hour, getting out of the pool is much easier. My 'supporters' notice that very well, because i lean much less on them than when going in.

Must be better bloodflow, i'm sure...
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Re: venous valves

Postby vesta » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:21 pm

Robnl wrote:Hi Vesta,

You mentioned swimming; i can not walk without help. when i 'walk' to the pool supported by 2 persons (left/right) it's very difficult to go into the pool. After walking around in the pool for an hour, getting out of the pool is much easier. My 'supporters' notice that very well, because i lean much less on them than when going in.

Must be better bloodflow, i'm sure...


Hi Robni:
I'm sure as well. My right side is handicapped but I can do the crawl by stretching out my right arm with the good left arm, then I can pull out the right arm and advance by using the back muscles, after which I advance with the left arm. The deep breathing and full body movement really gets the blood circulating which also gets the OXYGEN into the brain, I feel oxygenated. Another advantage is that exercise usually heats up the body - bad for MS - but the water cools off the body so one can move
get maximum body movement while in the water. I don't know how much movement you can do, but try to maximize body movement and deep breathing while in the water. I feel so much better and it also lifts depression.
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Re: venous valves

Postby drsclafani » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:29 pm

ljelome wrote:Dear All,

Pardon me, but my questions haven't been answered yet. I wonder:
1. What happen if both your IJV doesn't have any valves? (for what ever reason, birth defect, infections, and so on).
2. Will "no valves condition" cause reflux in your IJVs when you're doing valsava maneuver?

Oh yeah, Dr. Sclafani, when you said :

"if the valve is obstructed, generally what happens is that the vein above the stenosis starts to dilate or enlarge. Slow flow or stasis (absence of outflow) occurs. This leads to reduced arterial inflow, poorer perfusion with oxygenated blood into the brain and reduction in cerebrospinal fluid drainage and possibly hydrocephalus. Additionally, when the muscles of the neck contract, they MAY cause the pressurization of the blood within the vein. In the presence of obstruction toward flow into the heart, this blood may jet into the skull and injure deep cerebral veins."


My questions to you are :
1. Does "having no valves in my both IJV" could be categorized as a "valve obstruction" as described above?
2. What activities that makes my neck contract ? Is it a valvasa maneuver-like activities ?

Thank you for your explanation again.

Pardon me again, if my questions sound silly. But help me to understand about MS n CCSVI.
Thank you.



It is not uncommon for the valves to be not seen at all or to be seen only slightly. the reason is that they are very thin and may not be visible. I had a patient this past week whose valves could not be seen on ultrasound, were barely visible on IVUS but there were significant stenoses of both jugular veins.

I am beginning to believe that many of the cases of no valve mean that the valve is just not visible on the crude testing we do. It is pretty good testing for most but some patients, espeically young patients, the valve are just not visible on ultrasound.

The proof is in the porridge. the porridge is venography and IVUS.

I think that you might discuss your condition with Prijo Sidiprotomo in Jakarta. An old friend of mine, he might try to help you. just a guess

DrS
Salvatore JA Sclafani MD
Patient contact: ccsviliberation@gmail.com
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Re: venous valves

Postby drsclafani » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:31 pm

Robnl wrote:Hi Vesta,

You mentioned swimming; i can not walk without help. when i 'walk' to the pool supported by 2 persons (left/right) it's very difficult to go into the pool. After walking around in the pool for an hour, getting out of the pool is much easier. My 'supporters' notice that very well, because i lean much less on them than when going in.

Must be better bloodflow, i'm sure...

many patients say that they have more energy after they cool down. Could that be the explanation for you?
Salvatore JA Sclafani MD
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Re: venous valves

Postby ljelome » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:24 pm

Dear dr. Sclafani,

Dr. Sclafani wrote:
I think that you might discuss your condition with Prijo Sidiprotomo in Jakarta. An old friend of mine, he might try to help you. just a guess


Aigoo dr. Sclafani, u know what? dr Prijo Sidipratomo is my IR, i already discussed about CCSVI with him. He agreed for me to do the non-invasive exam to determine whether i have that condition or not. He is a very cautious doctor coz invasive exam could risk the blood vessel to damage. So he preferred me to go for CT Venogram n Doppler USG available in the hospital i've been treated.

My sonographer is a neurosonographer, his name is dr. Girianto T. He is the best one in Indonesia, so he admitted, but he has little knowledge about CCSVI examination using Doppler USG. That's way i brought him literature about Zamboni protocols n Karren Marr's video so he could do the correct procedure.

Thank you dr. Sclafani for your help n information.
Last edited by ljelome on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Warm regards,
Linda

|For the joy of the Lord is your strength | A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones| God always leads us to where we need to be, not where we want to be|
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