AVM (similar to CCSVI)

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

AVM (similar to CCSVI)

Postby sbr487 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:32 am

Posted by Denise on facebook. Article is 11 pages in all.

http://www.medicinenet.com/arteriovenou ... rticle.htm
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Postby Cece » Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:58 am

My understanding is that AVMs are when artieries and veins are snarled together, so the inflow and the outflow is mixing...different than CCSVI, but certainly of interest!
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Postby babiezuique » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:55 am

I dont understand why you say... that it is not ccsvi? I read all the paper and this dercribe very well.... the bad vascular system people with reflux...have...?
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Postby Cece » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:04 am

from teh article:
"Arteriovenous malformations (AVMs) are defects of the circulatory system that are generally believed to arise during embryonic or fetal development or soon after birth. They are comprised of snarled tangles of arteries and veins. Arteries carry oxygen-rich blood away from the heart to the body's cells; veins return oxygen-depleted blood to the lungs and heart. The presence of an AVM disrupts this vital cyclical process. "

It's relevant, it affects the circulatory system to the brain and the neurological functioning of the brain, but no, it's not CCSVI. An AVM should be recognisable through imaging, they're more of a tangle of blood vessels...artery & vein together...all swollen and ugly...while CCSVI is veins only, with malformed valves & missing/too small jugulars & that sort of thing instead.
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Postby sbr487 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:10 am

We missed the point I guess.
Points to note:
1) Blood bypasses brain and causes symptoms similar to CCSVI
2) This is congenital too
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Postby Cece » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:18 am

"What other types of vascular lesions affect the central nervous system?

Besides AVMs, three other main types of vascular lesion can arise in the brain or spinal cord: cavernous malformations, capillary telangiectases, and venous malformations. These lesions may form virtually anywhere within the central nervous system, but unlike AVMs, they are not caused by high-velocity blood flow from arteries into veins. In contrast, cavernous malformations, telangiectases, and venous malformations are all low-flow lesions. Instead of a combination of arteries and veins, each one involves only one type of blood vessel. These lesions are less unstable than AVMs and do not pose the same relatively high risk of significant hemorrhage. In general, low-flow lesions tend to cause fewer troubling neurological symptoms and require less aggressive treatment than do AVMs."

CCSVI falls into this other category, where it's low-flow instead of high-flow, there is not the risk of hemorrhage, and it "tends to cause fewer troubling neurological symptoms"...although I demand a recount of that last statement.... :)
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Postby thisisalex » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:38 pm

great find!
I think the point is that an arteriovenous malformation CAN produce the symptoms of MS.
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Postby Cece » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:52 pm

Seizures and headaches?

Sorry for my doggedness, I'm pretty sure I understand the point being made here, I just disagree with making it too much of a blanket statement. CCSVI is its own unique creature.

I'll leave y'all in peace now. :)
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Postby AlmostClever » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:57 pm

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Last edited by AlmostClever on Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jtillis22 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:53 am

When I was diagnosed with MS, I was also diagnosed with an AVM. The doctors at the MRI place called me and my partner into the room to tell us... and I wasn't even sure I had MS at the time... and oh, by the way, you also have this arteriovenous malformation, which is on the large side and close to the center of your brain, and it could kill you in an instant. Gawd, what should I do about THAT??? I couldn't even find a doctor in this great state of California who would help me. Until I found Dr. Edwards, who agreed to do gamma knife surgery (which is similar to a radiation treatment, no knives involved at all), which takes 3-4 years to be completed (and I could have died at any point during those years).

I know that a lot of this has to do with where in the brain the AVM is, but I had NO symptoms at all from the AVM, other than headaches as a teenager, when all of the arteries and veins grew a lot. I didn't have any MS symptoms from the AVM... those were all from my MS!

AVM patients do NOT develop lesions in their brains. They/we just have a basically "dead" area where the blood doesn't flow correctly. I had no deoxygenated blood circulating back to my lungs from that part of my brain until after the gamma knife surgery. Now that area is really dead! It was killed by the gamma knife surgery, but I'm happy that the AVM won't grow back!

I have never had a seizure. There are no capillaries where the AVM is.

People whose AMVs bleed can have very serious consequences from it, including death. While the article mentions displacing parts of the brain... well, this happened to me, with no symptoms. The midline of my brain was shifting....

I don't think AVM has anything to do with CCSVI! I can only tell you that the neurosurgeons who did the gamma knife surgery on me did not see or mention any blockages in any of the veins that they used to get the catheter into my brain. But that doesn't mean that they even looked at the azygous vein.

Any other questions, please ask!
Last edited by jtillis22 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rieja » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:01 am

From an earlier post I had:

My brother had an AVM. It ruptured in his brain on Sept 1 2009. Basically, he had a stroke at age 33. I, 35, was Dx with MS Oct 15th while watching and praying for my brother to survive.

OK sob story out of the way He is doing ok. He has to use a cane and was paralyzed on his left side. I say was because he is getting better daily and can now lift his left arm and leg.

An AVM is not like CCSVI. Simliar in the sense that there is a malformation but that is about it. The horror of an AVM is that a lot of the time, the person has no idea they have it. The "arteries and low flow veins meet up in a tangled clump" are sometimes overlooked by the body. My bro for instance was in top physical condition AND going for grad school. Then one night, the clump burst and blood flowed into the brain. Reflux? maybe? but on a deathly scale.

CCSVI COULD be considered a cousin of the AVM but without the clutter efffect. Slow death of the brain by reflux blood instead of the burst that my bro had.

The oddity is that my bro has this "vascular malformation" and I might have CCSVI (once I get tested) soooo... genectics anyone? Oh and an AVM is usually a birth defect.


To answer another question, there were no lesions that were reported from any scan on my bro.

If there were any reflux, it would be on the artery side. That being said, I have no clue how the body would handle that. Based on my, albeit little, knowledge on AVMs, there are no lesions or "side effects" if reflux is there. The pressure in arteries are different than that of veins. Also, the walls of arteries are more dense I believe to handle the increase of pressure. Reflux from an AVM would probably not effect an individual the way CCSVI does.
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Postby cah » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:18 am

Didn't the UIP include CCSVI in the AVM consensus paper? Or did I get this wrong?
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Postby jtillis22 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:37 am

Well, I suppose I'm ignorant about this! I was only speaking from my personal experience and the article that was mentioned at the beginning of this post, http://www.medicinenet.com/arteriovenou ... rticle.htm. Unfortunately I haven't heard of the UIP or know they did an AVM consensus paper. Would you mind giving me the links so I can check it out?
Thanks!
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Postby cheerleader » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:57 am

Hey guys--

Here's the paper discussing truncular venous malformations (this is how the vascular doctors are classifying CCSVI) In this instance, it doesn't involve arteries, just a blockage formed inside veins---this is likened to the web-like structure found in the portal vein creating portal venous hypertension. Very different than AVMs...

http://www.fondazionehilarescere.org/pd ... 8-ANGY.pdf

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dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
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Postby cah » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:18 pm

Ok, I confused TVM with AVM.


Thanks, Cheer!
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