Antibiotics, Zamboni and the Aha! moment

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Antibiotics, Zamboni and the Aha! moment

Postby Notdoneyet » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:38 pm

I have just returned from Egypt, where I was tested and received three balloon angioplasties to open blocked jugular and azygos veins that the doctor said were the worst he'd seen, so far. I am seven days, post-op and starting to recover from jet lag, sleep deprivation, two thirty hour journeys over three continents and a life changing, but relatively simple medical procedure.

Most of my symptoms and some unexpected ones are returning to normal, at least to some degree, and some seem to have disappeared completely. Here is my symptom report, seven days post-op.


• the ground isn't moving anymore, better balance and no vertigio
• no spasms or shaking anything, my body is at rest
• spasticity mostly gone
• my complexion has changed from bluish to pinkish
• i can breathe properly when I didn't realize how bad my breathing and swallowing is easier and there is less choking
• I am taller and have relaxed neck and shoulders
• I turned the heat up 2º in my house and I am sleeping long and comfortably and amwarm, without sweating or freezng
• walking still isn't that much better, but I am a little weak, though and I'm confident I won't be using the cane much as time goes on. I've also spent so much time trying tocompensate for poor walking that things will have to reorder in my head before I walk better. There are already flashes of brilliant walking
• total clarity of thought, better response from thought to mouth . . .little hesitation, quicker thinking
• Urination problems resolved to a large degree. IP Freely, with less hesitation and i am able to hold it, when I need to, with compete voiding of kidneys
• lots of energy and purpose
and many more things still to come, inshallah

The 24 hours following the procedure was spent resting, staying in, on, or near my bed and watching the American shows on the five available English TV stations. Two movie channels and MTV that promoted war, violence, porn and the American way of life, CNN and Discovery Science, which exhibited the west's vast technological superiority over the Middle East. I digress.

I've been trying to figure out why the antibiotic program that I've been on for the past six years has seemed to arrest the development of my disease progress and weighing that with the CCSVI findings of Zamboni and my own personal experience, then . . .

There was a program about brewing beer in North America and a new Molson's plant, being built in Moncton, New Brunswick. It was explained that $4 million dollars worth of piping had to be sent back to the manufacturer because the inside surface wasn't perfectly smooth. The imperfections trapped bacteria, making for bad beer. And what if the pipes are completely blocked?

It's all about your pipes and keeping them clean! That's why a change of diet, or adding antibiotics early on may reverse, or halt MS progression. As we have developed genetic dispositions and we age, smoke, eat poorly, take birth control pills and pursue other unhealthy vein behaviour, such as poor diet with no real sunlight for Vitamin D, our veins have narrowed and in more women than men and in a worldwide epidemic that is spreading, while we are being urged to preserve the "American" way of life. Read this link on Deep vein thrombosis, explaining the links to vitamin D and vein health. It explains, for me, the heavier weighting that women have towards MS with regards to birth control. http://ezinearticles.com/?Vitamin-D-Doe ... id=2270549

I still am convinced, from my own oersonal experience, that Chlamydia pneumoniae, or something that the Wheldon protocol was fighting, played a major factor in my illness. Even after five years, when I took a long break from my antibiotic regime, my symptoms worsened. I, also, always felt better, sharper when taking flagyl (metronidazole).

I don't think you HAVE to have Cpn to cause the symptoms of MS, but combining the theories of Zamboni with those of Stratton and Wheldon, along with the practicing of good vein health, answers all of the questions I have about the causes, disease process and the treatment protocol in MY exhibition of Multiple Sclerosis. The people over at antibiotics (http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-6670-15.html) should give themselves a little clap on the back. Instead, they are scratching their heads, because they were getting close and along came Zamboni.

They're all right! Save the folks that are trying to sell us snake oil in the guise of science. This is the Aha! moment for me. Can you think of any aspects of MS that this combination of several theories doesn't explain?

My liberation was a gift from the east to the west and I am SOOOO grateful and happy!

I have a new theme song! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtxuW1cOdTQ. And should I change my name to "almostdone?:

Colin
Last edited by Notdoneyet on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby sofia » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:50 pm

Maybe you are on to something here :-)
I am a big fan of the antibiotic theory, and want to start the weldon regime at some point. Just wanted to get ccsvi done with first.
I never belived that ccsvi is the whole answer, but I know that it helps, as I recovered after my procedure. I am going back this week to have second procedure if needed now after some of the symptoms have returned.

ps. congratualtion on all your improvmoents!
<div>I have lived with ms for 8 years. The last year has been hell, I've gone from shite to even worse every single month, until my liberation in May. </div>
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Postby cheerleader » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:12 pm

Hi Colin--
congratulations, what an adventure! Best to you as you recover from your travels...and keep us posted on your recovery.

Dr. Zamboni is testing how venous insufficiency can be worsened by endothelial disruption...as you call it, "damage to the pipes". The lining of the blood vessels become inflamed, levels of c-reative protein are increased and plasmic particles can become deposited in brain tissue. Common endothelial disrupters Zamboni and his team are studying are smoking, CpN, EBV, and low vitamin D. All of these can influence nitric oxide distribution and change the lining of the blood vessels. I know that many people have found remission on the antibiotic protocol. Many people also do well on the Swank low fat diet, or high vitamin D supplementation. I believe the connection is the endothelium. Here's the paper I wrote up on this theory --
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=123456602210
best,
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Notdoneyet » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:43 pm

Hey Cheer,

I like your thinking, and it is a little rigourous a protocol for me, as usual. Sometimes you kind of get to me with your truths. LOL

So, chlamydia pneumoniae or some other bacteria was probably a big player in the health of my veins, among many other factors, including my lifestyle.

Thanks,
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Postby kc » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:22 pm

I did the full stratton antibiotic for 3 years. There were times when I thought I was improving, but no. I kept getting worse. I actually am better now being off abx, doing high vitamin d and sleeping inclined.

I really deteroirated on the abx, the whole time I was telling myself it was just detox. One interesting thing is that I couldn't even handle taking one capsule of NAC without having my insides jump out of my body. Believe me I tried to up it.

I sometimes go on that site, CPn Help.org, and see people who continue to deteriorate after being on the protocol for 4 years. That is great that it worked for some people. But it doesn't work for all.

I would be interested to know what Flagyl does to the endothelium because I always felt better on it.

I personally am on the ccsvi train. My life has changed since sleeping inclined, what will it be like after I am liberated? I can't help but have hope.
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brain infection?

Postby codefellow » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:12 pm

These theories got me thinking also. My wife is subject to frequent UTI's as a result of her urine not flowing properly. Batcteria gets trapped in her pipes and causes an infection...what if blood flow can do something similar..

(from a strictly non-medical guy, of course..)

First, the veins around the head and neck are a little malformed and the blood flows back into the brain. Not only iron, but possibly also bacteria might be able to penetrate the BBB, triggering the auto-immune response.
So now we have a viral cause for MS...and it probably does not matter which virus it is Epstein-Barr, whatever, the result is the same.

Which is why my wife's MS suddenly became worse after a severe flu.
Twenty years with one symptom (optic neuritis), then a really bad flu, then the MS rears its ugly head and she spends the remainder of her life bedridden.

Another piece of the puzzle.....
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Re: brain infection?

Postby cheerleader » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:19 pm

codefellow wrote:These theories got me thinking also. My wife is subject to frequent UTI's as a result of her urine not flowing properly. Batcteria gets trapped in her pipes and causes an infection...what if blood flow can do something similar..

(from a strictly non-medical guy, of course..)

First, the veins around the head and neck are a little malformed and the blood flows back into the brain. Not only iron, but possibly also bacteria might be able to penetrate the BBB, triggering the auto-immune response.
So now we have a viral cause for MS...and it probably does not matter which virus it is Epstein-Barr, whatever, the result is the same.

Which is why my wife's MS suddenly became worse after a severe flu.
Twenty years with one symptom (optic neuritis), then a really bad flu, then the MS rears its ugly head and she spends the remainder of her life bedridden.

Another piece of the puzzle.....


BINGO! You got it. Venous reflux and a break in the blood brain barrier are worsened by those endothelial disrupters...viruses, bacteria, metals, toxins...no wonder the immune system comes in to clean up! And no wonder MS has been such a mystery... cheer
Last edited by cheerleader on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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...but on the other hand.....

Postby codefellow » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:51 am

....shouldn't our immune systems be smart enough to recognize what is and what is not a foreign body and leave the myelin sheath alone?

perhaps because the blood has never seen brain matter before it broke through the BBB, it doesn't really matter whether the brain is infected or not...as far as the blood is concerned, the whole brain is a foreign body!
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Re: ...but on the other hand.....

Postby Motiak » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:50 am

codefellow wrote:....shouldn't our immune systems be smart enough to recognize what is and what is not a foreign body and leave the myelin sheath alone?

perhaps because the blood has never seen brain matter before it broke through the BBB, it doesn't really matter whether the brain is infected or not...as far as the blood is concerned, the whole brain is a foreign body!


Isn't it possible that foreign bodies are the things doing the damage and the immune system is correctly working on damaged parts of the brain?
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Re: ...but on the other hand.....

Postby sbr487 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:56 am

codefellow wrote:....shouldn't our immune systems be smart enough to recognize what is and what is not a foreign body and leave the myelin sheath alone?

perhaps because the blood has never seen brain matter before it broke through the BBB, it doesn't really matter whether the brain is infected or not...as far as the blood is concerned, the whole brain is a foreign body!


I am not sure if this is going to help, but our immune system is much more complicated than that. The immune system differentiates between foreign and local organisms by looking at specific signatures. The moment it finds a signature (the signatures are (I believe) chemical chain), it alerts the immune system and also the type of foreign agent (so that immune can prepare precise reaction). I think howstuffworks.com has a very good backgrounder on immune system (very fascination, I must say) ...

As far as myelin sheath is concerned, I think it is an innocent victim of immune reaction. I think our immune system cannot be too precise when they try clean up ...
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Postby AMcG » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:07 am

I am sure this has been referenced before but just in case..

The usual explanation for the immune system attacking myelin is called 'molecular mimicry.' It is part of the rationale for the BB Diet.

http://www.direct-ms.org/molecularmimicry.html
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Postby cheerleader » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:43 am

Sorry--I have kept the explanation simple, but rather than create more confusion, I'll illucidate, and supply some recent papers. We now know that the immune system is activated to attack myelin based protein in stroke. This is a recent discovery made in the last ten years:

Background and purpose
Animals subjected to an inflammatory insult with lipopolysaccharide (LPS) at the time of stroke are predisposed to develop a detrimental autoimmune response to myelin basic protein (MBP). In this study, we sought to determine whether other inflammatory stimuli could similarly invoke central nervous system (CNS) autoimmunity and whether these detrimental autoimmune responses occurred to antigens other than MBP.


http://www.springerlink.com/content/h86m81n17nm1t265/

Animals subjected to an inflammatory insult at the time of stroke are predisposed to the development of an inflammatory autoimmune response to brain. This response is associated with worse neurological outcome. Because induction of immunologic tolerance to brain antigens before stroke onset is associated with improved outcome, we sought to determine whether this paradigm could prevent the deleterious autoimmune response to brain provoked by an inflammatory stimulus at the time of ischemia.

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/conte ... /39/5/1575

This is different than the theories of molecular mimicry....it is all about what happens in the CNS when there is ischemic insult (due to hypoperfusion and lowered oxygen) a break in the BBB and inflammation. I know people get a bit confused, so just wanted to clarify. We now know that the body goes after myelin after an arterial infarction. I believe MS is proof of this mechanism in a chronic venous diseases, but this has yet to be studied and clarified. Dr. Zamboni and others are working on this connection, but the immune system going after myelin in other breaks in the BBB shows the mechanism.

hope that helps-
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby mshusband » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:56 am

Cheer, is this why people can recover after strokes? (I'm assuming yes - but just want to put it out there) ... because there is attack and damage, but the body heals itself over time.

Same should be said for MS if it is stopped relatively early. Even in Dr. Dake's presentation in Tampa he says, get it while at a low EDSS and you'll see the best results (again because the time factor hasn't been 'long' in that case).

That Dr. Dake - now if we could just get him practicing again, though I've got 2 of his east coast friends on board (procedures starting with them in a the coming weeks). ... thank you Cheer, for all you do.
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Postby mshusband » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:56 am

Cheer, is this why people can recover after strokes? (I'm assuming yes - but just want to put it out there) ... because there is attack and damage, but the body heals itself over time.

Same should be said for MS if it is stopped relatively early. Even in Dr. Dake's presentation in Tampa he says, get it while at a low EDSS and you'll see the best results (again because the time factor hasn't been 'long' in that case).

That Dr. Dake - now if we could just get him practicing again, though I've got 2 of his east coast friends on board (procedures starting with them in a the coming weeks). ... thank you Cheer, for all you do.
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still resting

Postby Notdoneyet » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:21 pm

I'm really happy that this discussion didn't die. For some reason, I haven't been receiving mail updates.

I've edited my original post at the top of this thread to place more emphasis on overall venal health. I still feel that Cpn, or something the antibiotics were working on, affected MY disease process because my progress was slowed significantly, if not halted, through their use.

Colin
Last edited by Notdoneyet on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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