New Study casts doubts over vein blockages in people with MS

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New Study casts doubts over vein blockages in people with MS

Postby dreddk » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:18 am

"Serious doubts have been cast over whether a vein disorder, purported to cause MS and which was uncovered last year, actually exists.

A study published online today, led by scientists from Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry, part of Queen Mary, University of London, and University Hospital Charité, Humboldt University in Berlin, found no evidence supporting previous claims that blockages in veins play a significant role in MS.

The 2009 proposal, that people with MS have chronically blocked veins, which lead to a backflow of blood into their brains, was reported by a group of Italian researchers, who coined the term chronic cerebro-spinal venous sufficiency ( CCSVI).

The research triggered international media interest and caused many people with MS to believe their veins need to be scanned and widened, or “liberated” in the words of the leading author. Treatment attempts based on the theory of CCSVI resulted in two serious adverse events, one of which was fatal1.

Dr Klaus Schmierer, a clinical senior lecturer in neuroimmunology at the Blizard Institute for Cell and Molecular Science at Barts and The London, and co-author of the paper published today, said his research with the University Hospital Charité in Berlin brought CCSVI into question.

“We used virtually identical ultrasound techniques to try and reproduce the results by

Dr Zamboni and his co-researchers but we had quite different outcomes. In the 76 subjects used in our research, the blood flow in the head and neck veins was normal in everyone except for one person with MS,” Dr Schmierer said.

“Although some people have tried interventional procedures to ‘unblock veins’ we would strongly advise against this until further investigations into CCSVI and its possible role in MS are conducted.”

Dr Schmierer’s fellow researchers, Florian Doepp, Jose Valdueza and Stephan Schreiber, performed an extracranial and transcranial venous ultrasound analysis of 76 subjects; 56 people with MS and 20 healthy people. None of the subjects fulfilled more than one criterion for CCSVI.

“Although we didn’t find any evidence to support the theory of CCSVI, the discrepancies between the studies may be due to the inclusion in our study of blood flow analysis. We believe the comprehensive venous blood flow assessment performed in our study provides a strong basis to diagnose obstructions in the veins,” Dr Schmierer said.

Further studies to evaluate this theory are underway. Preliminary results from a large study at the University of Buffalo have so far been inconclusive."

Link to study: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 6/abstract
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Postby foreignlesion » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:59 am

“We used virtually identical ultrasound techniques to try and reproduce the results by

“Although we didn’t find any evidence to support the theory of CCSVI, the discrepancies between the studies may be due to the inclusion in our study of blood flow analysis."

How can something be virtually identical, yet utilise a completely different analysis?
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Postby muse » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:03 am

....and again, and again, and....have fun with 100% junk sience
=> http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-89531.html#89531 :x
or just learn more:
http://www.fondazionehilarescere.org/pd ... 8-ANGY.pdf
Best
Arne
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Postby Perky » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:22 am

This really, really depresses me, especially as London hospitals were involved. I so hope it's flawed.
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Re: New Study casts doubts over vein blockages in people wit

Postby sbr487 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:28 am

dreddk wrote:"Serious doubts have been cast over whether a vein disorder, purported to cause MS and which was uncovered last year, actually exists.

A study published online today, led by scientists from Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry, part of Queen Mary, University of London, and University Hospital Charité, Humboldt University in Berlin, found no evidence supporting previous claims that blockages in veins play a significant role in MS.

The 2009 proposal, that people with MS have chronically blocked veins, which lead to a backflow of blood into their brains, was reported by a group of Italian researchers, who coined the term chronic cerebro-spinal venous sufficiency ( CCSVI).

The research triggered international media interest and caused many people with MS to believe their veins need to be scanned and widened, or “liberated” in the words of the leading author. Treatment attempts based on the theory of CCSVI resulted in two serious adverse events, one of which was fatal1.

Dr Klaus Schmierer, a clinical senior lecturer in neuroimmunology at the Blizard Institute for Cell and Molecular Science at Barts and The London, and co-author of the paper published today, said his research with the University Hospital Charité in Berlin brought CCSVI into question.

“We used virtually identical ultrasound techniques to try and reproduce the results by

Dr Zamboni and his co-researchers but we had quite different outcomes. In the 76 subjects used in our research, the blood flow in the head and neck veins was normal in everyone except for one person with MS,” Dr Schmierer said.

“Although some people have tried interventional procedures to ‘unblock veins’ we would strongly advise against this until further investigations into CCSVI and its possible role in MS are conducted.”

Dr Schmierer’s fellow researchers, Florian Doepp, Jose Valdueza and Stephan Schreiber, performed an extracranial and transcranial venous ultrasound analysis of 76 subjects; 56 people with MS and 20 healthy people. None of the subjects fulfilled more than one criterion for CCSVI.

“Although we didn’t find any evidence to support the theory of CCSVI, the discrepancies between the studies may be due to the inclusion in our study of blood flow analysis. We believe the comprehensive venous blood flow assessment performed in our study provides a strong basis to diagnose obstructions in the veins,” Dr Schmierer said.

Further studies to evaluate this theory are underway. Preliminary results from a large study at the University of Buffalo have so far been inconclusive."

Link to study: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 6/abstract


Dept of neurology


Funded by German research foundation ...


published in annals of neurology


Can you expect any objective research then ... forget it ...[/quote]
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Postby smokey » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:24 am

Thank you Muse and SBR......
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Postby frodo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:41 am

The tittle is "No cerebro-cervical venous congestion in patients with multiple sclerosis". They were looking for congestion instead of reflux. Besides they don't report any experience testing vein congestion. Their conclusion about CCSVI means that they haven't even read the description of the problem.

I would say that this report shouldn't have passed a minimally serious revision. Is it serious the medical magazine were they published? (Annals of Neurology). Probably they will get some complains.

EDIT: And anyway, why should we care? again, it is not important at all if CCSVI is associated with MS. Maybe it is better to accept their point of view (there is no relationship) and go to a vascular doctor to get the veins tested for any other reason (cold hands, headaches, ...).
Last edited by frodo on Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby skincoll » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:06 am

I wonder if they doubt my mental clarity and sweaty palms (day 5).
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Postby sbr487 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:08 am

Florian Doepp, MD 1 *, Friedemann Paul, MD 1 2, José M. Valdueza, MD 3, Klaus Schmierer, PhD 4 5, Stephan J Schreiber, MD 1


Run for cover ... there is a friedemann here too :lol:
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bias -- random thoughts

Postby codefellow » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:02 am

While this study by neurologists may almost certainly be biased AGAINST finding anything linking MS and CCSVI, I think we have to acknowledge that other studies by the cardiovascular specialist may be equally biased FOR finding that link.

So we have to be equally cautious when we dismiss a study and when we embrace one.

We have to keep demanding more research, all the while realizing that more research may NOT provide the outcomes we would like to see.
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Postby Habenoughyet » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:06 am

I guess you can pretty much count on the 7 other studies lined up in North America, and funded by the MSS, is going to look a lot like this... No surprise. But, a serious waste of time. :x

HEY
"Never argue with stupid people... They bring you down to they're level and beat you with experience"
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Re: bias -- random thoughts

Postby frodo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:38 am

codefellow wrote:While this study by neurologists may almost certainly be biased AGAINST finding anything linking MS and CCSVI, I think we have to acknowledge that other studies by the cardiovascular specialist may be equally biased FOR finding that link.

So we have to be equally cautious when we dismiss a study and when we embrace one.

We have to keep demanding more research, all the while realizing that more research may NOT provide the outcomes we would like to see.


But this only shows that CCSVI is difficult to diagnosize via Doppler, not that there is no link. Invasive venography instead could yield better results.
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Postby Greenfields » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:46 am

If they wanted to De-bunk the CCSVI theory they should have done Veno-grams........the gold standard.
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Postby sbr487 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:49 am

On a serious note - I think this is better than saying "unscientific", "non blinded" etc. Shall we say the first round goes to CCSVI?

A study like this will give opportunity for Drs like Zamboni to respond more objectively. Also, not every scientist might be naive to put his name in a paper which is open to scrutiny ...
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Postby bluesky63 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:35 am

Just curious, can they diagnose heart vessel blockages via ultrasound? Don't they just routinely use a catheter for angiogram for diagnosis followed by on-the-spot ballooning and stenting if needed?
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