Dawson's fingers and Dr. Schelling?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Dawson's fingers and Dr. Schelling?

Postby MS_mama » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:08 pm

Ok, so I have a new lesion from my last MRI, on the corpus callosum. Apparently can be "Dawson's fingers" in that area. I thought I remember some mention of a connection between Schelling's theories about vascular involvement and Dawson's fingers. Has anyone read anything about this or been in contact with Dr. Schelling?
dx RRMS Jun. 2009...on Copaxone and LDN and waiting for my turn to be "liberated"<br />
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Dr. Schelling and Dawson's Fingers

Postby Shayk » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:46 pm

Hi MS Mama

Here's a link to Dr. Schelling's web site. If you scroll down you'll see a "crash course" on Dawson's Fingers.

Dr. Schelling's book, "Multiple Sclerosis: The Image and Its Message" is also available there.

I read his materials some time ago and found them fascinating. As far as I know Dr. Schelling, though retired, has been in contact with Dr. Zamboni and is definitely interested in CCSVI.

Hope the info helps. :)

Sharon
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Postby muse » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:11 pm

Dr. Schelling is something like “the brain” of the whole CCSVI thing. He is already retired but still very, very active.
Best Arne http://csvi-ms.net/content/who-is-who
Dawson fingers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_fingers
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Postby Cece » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:20 pm

Did one of Zamboni's papers talk about Dawson's fingers?
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby muse » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:14 pm

Cece wrote:Did one of Zamboni's papers talk about Dawson's fingers?


I don't think so. The Dawson’s Fingers were more a topic of the neurologists & the radiologists. Prof. Zamboni picked up this line of research thirty years after Dr. Schelling noticed this in the 70s and he was able to see the reflux with Doppler sonography. Unfortunately Dr Schelling didn’t have the right technology (MRI etc) at this time. Best Arne
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Postby Algis » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:20 pm

In one of his emails; the Dr.Schelling wrote:

In trying to find out whether an instance of MS is developing on account of
venous anomaly we ought to first try to find out what a kind of lesions its
neurological deficits are caused by. Did your MRI show Dawson's fingers
arising from the lower surface of the corpus callosum or at the Steiner's
Wetterwinkel (the lateral cerebral ventricles' outer angle) or more
peripheral ovoid lesions/Steiner splashes?


we may have to correlate the MRI results of plaques with the 'map' of our venous flow.

He also wrote once:

According to the available evidence, the development of MS of especially
lower segments of the spinal cord depends mainly on anomalies affecting
lumbar veins and their connection to epidural spinal veins, on the one hand,
and to inferior cava vein on the other. The azygos vein can only set part of
the scene.
Our present diagnostic workup of vein-conditioned MS is incomplete even in
the brain. What is being looked for are venous stenoses in internal jugular
veins- without even considering whether, or to which extent, such stenoses
do actually affect the venous pathway of straight sinus and inner cerebral
veins. Unusual widening, valvular incompetence and collateral channels along
internal jugular veins are hardly even taken into account.


Hope any of this might help; cheers!
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Postby ErikaSlovakia » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:37 pm

I have MS, CCSVI and Dawson's fingers (MRI).
I have been in contact with Dr. Schelling since last August.
I have about 30 lesions in my brain and 3 in my C spine.
Erika
Aug. 7, 09 Doppler Ultras. in Poland, left Jugul. valve problem, RRMS since 1996, now SPMS,
- Nov.3,09: one stent in the left jug. vein in Katowice, Poland, LDN, never on DMDs
- Jan. 19, 11: control venography in Katowice - negative but I feel worse
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Postby NotFound » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:28 pm

Very very interesting. I am hoping with all my heart that more specialists will be looking into this.

I have Dawson's fingers and no CCSVI was found in Poland.

He also wrote once:

According to the available evidence, the development of MS of especially
lower segments of the spinal cord depends mainly on anomalies affecting
lumbar veins and their connection to epidural spinal veins, on the one hand,
and to inferior cava vein on the other.
The azygos vein can only set part of the scene.

Our present diagnostic workup of vein-conditioned MS is incomplete even in the brain. What is being looked for are venous stenoses in internal jugular veins- without even considering whether, or to which extent, such stenoses do actually affect the venous pathway of straight sinus and inner cerebral veins.

Unusual widening, valvular incompetence and collateral channels along internal jugular veins are hardly even taken into account.


Hope any of this might help; cheers!
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Postby ErikaSlovakia » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:24 am

NotFound wrote:Very very interesting. I am hoping with all my heart that more specialists will be looking into this.

I have Dawson's fingers and no CCSVI was found in Poland.

He also wrote once:

According to the available evidence, the development of MS of especially
lower segments of the spinal cord depends mainly on anomalies affecting
lumbar veins and their connection to epidural spinal veins, on the one hand,
and to inferior cava vein on the other.
The azygos vein can only set part of the scene.

Our present diagnostic workup of vein-conditioned MS is incomplete even in the brain. What is being looked for are venous stenoses in internal jugular veins- without even considering whether, or to which extent, such stenoses do actually affect the venous pathway of straight sinus and inner cerebral veins.

Unusual widening, valvular incompetence and collateral channels along internal jugular veins are hardly even taken into account.


Hope any of this might help; cheers!

MAYBE, you have similar problem as me. So far, there was "only" one problem found in my case in Poland. I am in touch with Dr. Simka of course and he believes there is something else. He mentioned he had one patient not long time ago with a patent vein but very slow almost no flow. I have been aware since the beggining that I am only patient #2, so we might find more things later.
As I remember from Dr. Schelling`s book, Dowson`s fingers are typical for CCSVI.
Do not worry, we will find out what else is wrong.
Erika
Aug. 7, 09 Doppler Ultras. in Poland, left Jugul. valve problem, RRMS since 1996, now SPMS,
- Nov.3,09: one stent in the left jug. vein in Katowice, Poland, LDN, never on DMDs
- Jan. 19, 11: control venography in Katowice - negative but I feel worse
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Postby NotFound » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:49 pm

Oh my, Dr. Schelling replied to my e-mail! :D

Basically what he is saying - Dawson's fingers do not necessarily correlate with the "standard" CCSVI as we (or at least I) came to know it, such as stenosis or blockage or malfunction in the jugular veins and / or azygos vein.

It could be:

    Malformation of ANY of the jugular veins, as I believe there are two on either side. I am not sure that the "standard" catheter venography goes though both on the either side.

    That the Dawson's fingers can form because of the lack of oxygen to those tissues that can be due to infectious or post-infectious damage to the brain (:!: could we conclude that Lyme might be to blame in some of the cases? )

    That DF's can form because of Fleeting obstructions of a jugular vein as occurring in certain head positions or muscular activities



He also concludes by saying that Dawson's Fingers are not caused by venous obstructions per se, but by venous flow inversions which venous obstructions predispose to (which he repeats, can be "fleeting" / intermittent.

Is this what we here commonly call a "reflux"?
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Postby ikulo » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:08 pm

NotFound wrote:Oh my, Dr. Schelling replied to my e-mail! :D


I don't mean to hijack this thread, but just wanted to say that I am amazed with the openness and willingness of all the doctors involved with CCSVI to answer emails, respond to questions, work together and generally further the research on this topic, whether in academic or informal settings. It's reassuring to have their attitude and spirit on our side.

anyway, back to what you were doing.
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