Visualizing iron deposition in MS cadaver brains

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby cheerleader » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:20 pm

jimmy...the "absence of zinc" just means they knew it was iron deposited-- not zinc. (SWI can detect different mineralization in the brain, including copper or zinc, and the XRF technology allowed them to differentiate the minerals they saw on MRI) All that sentence means is they knew it wasn't zinc they saw. This study has nothing to do with a lack of zinc in serum levels....although I know there are many studies regarding the need for zinc...

I thought I was clear above...will try again. Iron found in the brain is not about the levels of metals in the blood. Cellular death can cause iron deposition. It's not necessarily about serum levels. Back to Haacke. Iron seen on SWI can be from:

1.oligodendrocyte ferritin after macrophage activity (dead cells leave an iron trail)
2.iron from blood products (actual microbleeds into brain tissue)
3. iron in the vessel wall or some combination of these.

The iron that is measured here may represent hemosiderin which comes from the breakdown of blood not from other sources of iron. There is no evidence at this time that there are stray sources of iron causing this problem, not has that been proposed in this research.


Iron in the brain is not about iron overload or a lack of minerals in serum. It's a sign of cellular death, microbleeds, reflux or the genetic instability of ferritin.
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Last edited by cheerleader on Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:32 pm

heya shye :)
i just got to feel like it was a dead horse after a while repeating myself... :S but thanks!
FYI i've had both my copper and zinc tested and it's the zinc that is problematic (for me at least) not copper.
history: high copper/low zinc vegan/veggie diet.
AND at the same time, low ferritin. my lesions may have high iron present but it's not from general iron overload - i am closer to deficient, again from vegan/vegetarianism.
aside: shye did you see my last post re ferritin, on my regimen thread?
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:38 pm

hi cheer how does this tie (or not) back to:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-57774.html#
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009
Jimmy!!! Thanks for this. Iron deposition is a big part of Dr. Zamboni's study "The big idea" - how the brain and spinal tissue is damaged by reflux. Zinc supplementation can really help clean up and heal.

oh no i just saw that the next post was by peek :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
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Postby cheerleader » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:49 pm

jimmylegs wrote:hi cheer how does this tie (or not) back to:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-57774.html#
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009
Jimmy!!! Thanks for this. Iron deposition is a big part of Dr. Zamboni's study "The big idea" - how the brain and spinal tissue is damaged by reflux. Zinc supplementation can really help clean up and heal.

oh no i just saw that the next post was by peek :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


I know...seeing peek's name is really, really hard. Think about her family a lot. I hope they are healing. So much has changed in just a year...really weird.

You're right, zinc is essential to finding that balance with iron. And Jeff still takes his zinc/calcium/mag suppie thanks to JL!! All's I was saying was that in this study, it's not about serum levels. The"lack of zinc" just means they were differentiating between minerals...SWI is kinda non-specific, so XRF (x-ray flourescence) was used to rule out zinc in brain tissue. Iron in the brain just signals cellular death or microbleeds. We don't know yet what the source of iron in the brain is in CCSVI yet, but the docs are learning. (us too :)
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:16 pm

tears, g'nite :(
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Postby Merlyn » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:28 pm

http://tinyurl.com/22lreua

this says that EDTA chelation successfully treats 60% of narrowed brain arteries, 97% of narrowed leg veins
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:09 am

zinc & EDTA - interesting i never would have hypothesized this one (take note best betters):

Dietary Metal-complexing Agents and Zinc Availability in the Rat
Donald Oberleas, Merle E. Muhrer and Boyd L. O’Dell

The growth rate of weanling rats was used to determine the effects of phytate, calcium and ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) upon the physiological availability of zinc. Phytate decreased availability and the effect was augmented by excess dietary calcium. Calcium had no effect in the absence of phytate so that its effect must be mediated through an interaction with phytate. EDTA increased zinc availability when the diet contained phytate but had no significant effect upon the growth rate in the absence of phytate. In vitro experiments showed that zinc phytate is highly insoluble at the pH range encountered in the small intestine. Addition of calcium to the medium produced an even more insoluble complex containing zinc, calcium and phytate. The results suggest that the formation of such complexes with phytate is the mechanism whereby zinc is made less available and the more complete precipitation of zinc in the presence of calcium explains the effect of excess calcium. In vitro studies with intestinal strips and 65Zn showed that zinc uptake was progressively decreased as the ratio of calcium to phytate was increased. This effect was counteracted in part by the addition of EDTA. It appears that EDTA increases zinc availability by competing with phytate and forming a soluble complex which allows absorption across membranes.

zinc & cell death:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/short/135/3/359

2005 The American Society for Nutritional Sciences J. Nutr. 135:359-362, March 2005

Recent Advances in Nutritional Sciences
Roles for Cell Death in Zinc Deficiency1,2
Pamela J. Fraker

Studies of zinc deficiency (ZD) have become important for demonstrating that nutritional imbalances can readily induce programmed cell death (PCD) or apoptosis in a variety of kinds of cells. In mice, ZD caused a 300% increase in the amount of apoptosis among pre T-cells, which was a major cause of thymic atrophy that alters host defense. Embryogenesis was significantly altered in ZD mice due to increased apoptosis in the neural crest, optic, and head regions. Insufficient zinc initiated PCD in hepatocytes, glioma, kidney, monocytes, fibroblasts, and testicular cells, demonstrating the scope of this phenomenon. New forms of cell death continue to emerge. For example, autophagy is initiated by starvation and various nutritional and metabolic imbalances. Autophagy is a form of PCD whereby the cell digests some of its own organelles to provide needed nutrients. Understanding the interplay between these different forms of cell death and nutritional imbalances is very important because of their profound impact on development, growth, immune function, and health.

zinc & microhemorrhage:

Matrix metalloproteinase-9 and spontaneous hemorrhage in an animal model of cerebral amyloid angiopathy
Jin-Moo Lee, MD, PhD et al

Abstract
We examined the potential role of the extra-cellular matrix-degrading enzyme, matrix metalloproteinase-9 (MMP-9), in the pathogenesis of cerebral amyloid angiopathy (CAA)-induced spontaneous hemorrhage. The amyloid-beta peptide (A) induced the synthesis, release and activation of MMP-9 in murine cerebral endothelial cells, resulting in increased extracellular matrix degradation. Furthermore, extensive MMP-9 immunoreactivity was observed in CAA-vessels with evidence of microhemorrhage in aged APPsw transgenic mice, but not detected in aged wild type or young APPsw mice. These results suggest that increased vascular MMP-9 expression, stimulated by A, may play a role in the pathogenesis of spontaneous intracerebral hemorrhage in patients with CAA.

for more on zinc and tissue integrity, check this one out:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-54065.html#54065

this one's on zinc deficiency and elevated MMP-9, plus another interesting one on zinc and response to interferon drugs:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-87026.html#87026

that's all for now, time to get ready for work..

jimmy
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Postby James78 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:21 am

Appologies if i'm rambling, having some heavy brain fog today

Just wanted to add a thought, since I can remember ive never really had anything like a sense of smell, furthermore years before I got diagnosed I ended up getting Seborrhoeic dermatitis (eased off now) which apparently 35% of those with neurological disease end up getting (way higher than % in general population). Both of these conditions are linked to a zinc deifiency.....so i decided to get myself tested and low and behold I am deficient

So if I have been zinc deficient for all these years, isnt it possible then that this has been contributing to higher iron deposits (as zinc interferes with iron absorbtion)? Is anyone taking zinc supplements? Essential helath clinic (UK) recommend it as zinc deficieny 'is also a cause of autoimmunity and should be addressed' They recommend 50mg whereas other sources suggest 15 is all thats needed for a 20-50 year old male

just some random thoughts....
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Postby Bethr » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:59 pm

Cece wrote:
cheerleader wrote:I believe we are going to learn that this hypoxic injury is more related to RRMS, and the iron deposition is more related to progressive disease.

Would secondary progressive be a case of iron deposition finally catching up to us?

This seems a workable theory. It fits my anecdotal evidence point (RR with flairs repeatedly after altitude). Fatigue would also fit with hypoxia rather than with iron deposition and I have fatigue!


People with hemochromatosis also get the "Brain Fog" and fatigue, it's a classic early symptom even before any organ damage is noted.
It diminishes when they have their iron reduced to low levels, and can return when their iron levels are raised to even a normal level in some.
For many, it is a marker that they need a therapeutic phlebotomy.

It would be nice if Maria De Sousa got involved, she's got to be one of the most knowledgeable researchers around when it comes to iron studies.
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Postby silverbirch » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:31 pm

James78 wrote:Appologies if i'm rambling, having some heavy brain fog today

Just wanted to add a thought, since I can remember ive never really had anything like a sense of smell, furthermore years before I got diagnosed I ended up getting Seborrhoeic dermatitis (eased off now) which apparently 35% of those with neurological disease end up getting (way higher than % in general population). Both of these conditions are linked to a zinc deifiency.....so i decided to get myself tested and low and behold I am deficient


So if I have been zinc deficient for all these years, isnt it possible then that this has been contributing to higher iron deposits (as zinc interferes with iron absorbtion)? Is anyone taking zinc supplements? Essential helath clinic (UK) recommend it as zinc deficieny 'is also a cause of autoimmunity and should be addressed' They recommend 50mg whereas other sources suggest 15 is all thats needed for a 20-50 year old male

just some random thoughts....


James welcome to the forum ramble away mate xx the msers in this forum are just perfect and knowledgeable they leave the professionals standing way behind - lots of brain storming going on what this lot dont know aint worth knowing . Alot of the professional read this forum but hide who they are !!!

Look out for jimmylegs postings in this forum she is very
good on the Vitiamins.

I take zinc the highest I found on the hi street 25mg (100) Holland & Barrets 1 per day plus I also take Vit c & zinc which tots upto zinc daily 40mg .

I had test done at EHC I was pleased with results although the report was about omega levels I was told to increase Omega 3 by ???

Did you ask for a special test on zinc or did bloods just return with zinc levels ?

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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:11 pm

hi james LOL as i was reading your post my internal monologue was going like this: no smell (zinc).. dermatitis (zinc) ah he's got the zinc link.. and deficient - bingo. funny!

yep i think there's a strong zinc-iron-ms connection. there's also a strong zinc-uric acid-ms connection. both resulting from low zinc not high zinc of course.

dosage:
15mg a day is for healthy people. once you're sick you need 50mg for therapeutic treatment.

target serum level:
your serum level needs to be not only inside the 'normal range', but if you want to match serum zinc levels seen in 'healthy controls', you want to be as close as you can to 18.2 umol/l. more is not better with zinc - you have to be careful not to stray too high or low.

see sig links below for more nutrition info :)
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Postby James78 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:18 pm

I had test done at EHC I was pleased with results although the report was about omega levels I was told to increase Omega 3 by ???

Did you ask for a special test on zinc or did bloods just return with zinc levels ?

Silverbirch[/quote]

Thankyou, to be honest I just did a hometest, will get a proper test done in due course....In the meantime I am going to start taking zinc supplements and omega 3 with Vitamin D...Ive heard green tea extract is good which I am also going to look into....just be interesting to hear if others are zinc deficient....
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Postby James78 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:21 pm

jimmylegs wrote:hi james LOL as i was reading your post my internal monologue was going like this: no smell (zinc).. dermatitis (zinc) ah he's got the zinc link.. and deficient - bingo. funny!

yep i think there's a strong zinc-iron-ms connection. there's also a strong zinc-uric acid-ms connection. both resulting from low zinc not high zinc of course.

dosage:
15mg a day is for healthy people. once you're sick you need 50mg for therapeutic treatment.

target serum level:
your serum level needs to be not only inside the 'normal range', but if you want to match serum zinc levels seen in 'healthy controls', you want to be as close as you can to 18.2 umol/l. more is not better with zinc - you have to be careful not to stray too high or low.

see sig links below for more nutrition info :)


Thnakyou jimmylegs...if you have any other advice for natural supplements (rather than drugs)....id be grateful...my MS journey is only just starting, I dont want to go down the route of poisoning my body futher with CRABS just yet....On the waiting list for CCSVI already....
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:31 pm

hey james, no worries :)

key tests for ms-ers are

> b12 - aim for minimum 500 pmol/L
> zinc - aim for 18.2 umol/L
> magnesium - aim for at least .91 (don't have the units handy just now)
> vit d3 [ the 25(OH)D3 metabolite ] aim for minimum 100 nmol/L, but 150 is better - above 250 you would probably start to see vit d3 toxicity issues
> uric acid (optional, rises and falls in step with zinc, but nice to know) aim for 290-300 umol/L. ms avg is 194.

there's much more to it but those five are a great starting point. for dosages refer to my signature links.

i do not recommend flying blind with supplements - testing is key!

hope that helps :)
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:39 pm

ps james yes i was zinc deficient. i never got the lack of smell and taste thing, but many other things did happen to me. i was really low, 8.6 when i should have been 18.2. my uric acid level would not budge off the ms average (194) for years, but when i fixed my zinc deficiency the uric acid popped back up to the upper 200s on its own. sa-weet!
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