New Swedish Study Casts Doubt on MS Vascular Theory

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby 1eye » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:06 pm

The Westmount Square Clinic apparently have their 'own' method, which explains why their prevalence numbers are different too. I know they use valsalva, which is not allowed in detecting CCSVI.

Let's face it, CCSVI is a lot less work if you can't find it.

I would like to encounter a clinician with an open mind, not one who deliberately sabotages possible diagnosis.
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:22 pm

partial edit complete. more to come (will remove content related to thread moderation). UPDATE - finished removing my moderation comments. let's keep it clean from now on, thanks!
Last edited by jimmylegs on Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Johnson » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:54 pm

Malden wrote:
BooBear wrote:@ Malden: I am not sure that it makes a difference.

All our veins have valve to ensure only one flow- including the IJVs. If blood could never flow into the brain, as you theorize below, why are the valves there?


Valve in vein is primary for helping blood below hart level to climb up to the hart. Blood above hart level can return to the hart without asistence of the valves, simply by gravitation. And in many cases is reported that neck veins dont have valves or valves are undeveloped or incompetent (cannulation and catheterization of the IJV may cause persistent incompetence of the IJV valve).
(emboldening mine)

The problem with that idea is that the IJVs return blood when the body is supine, in which case gravity has no part in the return. The vertebral veins can rely on gravity, and I am uncertain if they are valved.
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Postby jimmylegs » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:12 am

johnson what's the population of saltspring? do you know anyone with the surname duketow, sounds like duKEToh?
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Postby 1eye » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:04 am

The problem with that idea is that the IJVs return blood when the body is supine, in which case gravity has no part in the return. The vertebral veins can rely on gravity, and I am uncertain if they are valved.


The words below are those of an amateur, based only on what seems like reason to me. The problem I have is that blood must return to the heart while lying down/asleep. So 2 ways: pressure from the circulating blood (siphon action), or the thoracic and other muscular pumps. Gravity is not much involved. The heart drives the circulation, so if it is that, it will be pulsatile, and driven by pushing the blood through those capillaries. If is is the thoracic and other muscles, not as much. It will either assist or reflux the blood circulated by the heart. I suppose that is why my breathing stops sometimes. Just to let my circulation catch up with the reflux. It is when gravity is absent that the reflux is more likely, and it will be pulsatile, since the heart is still beating, but it will be mainly driven by breathing, unless a heart valve is broken.

The heart valve can be part of it if a certain condition exists: tricuspid insufficiency. The heart valve on the right side that prevents reflux of venous blood between heart chambers, fails: it has symptoms much like (indistinguishable from?) 'MS'/CCSVI. In this case the reflux will be much more pulsatile, so we should be able to distinguish, and it should be harder for gravity to overcome it.

Can we determine how much reflux is happening by how long sleep apneas are?
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Postby 1eye » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:25 am

If any of that is on the right track, lack of energy also ensures when we are upright the breathing remains less active. Exercise sounds like it will be ok as long as the heart strength and rapidity keeps up with breathing and use of muscles. I would think the whole system is different, and maybe less prone to reflux during exercise?
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Postby 1eye » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:35 am

1eye wrote:The heart valve can be part of it if a certain condition exists: tricuspid insufficiency. The heart valve on the right side that prevents reflux of venous blood between heart chambers, fails: it has symptoms much like (indistinguishable from?) 'MS'/CCSVI. In this case the reflux will be much more pulsatile, so we should be able to distinguish, and it should be harder for gravity to overcome it.


Is this, or other bad valve combo, PPMS? Do you never get a remission because you get reflux all the time, even when upright?
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Postby Woozie » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:23 am

Hi
I'm new here. I just wanted to say that the Swedish study was seen here in Sweden as a "commissioned job". Really bad work. :cry:
But, we work hard to make the CCSVI happen here in Sweden too inspite of our neurologists.

Thanks to all of you working to get the world to know about CCSVI!
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Postby sbr487 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:35 am

Woozie wrote:Hi
I'm new here. I just wanted to say that the Swedish study was seen here in Sweden as a "commissioned job". Really bad work. :cry:
But, we work hard to make the CCSVI happen here in Sweden too inspite of our neurologists.

Thanks to all of you working to get the world to know about CCSVI!


Don't worry. Its not representative of what is happening in Sweden ...
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
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