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A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

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Postby Lyon » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:02 pm

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Postby concerned » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:17 pm

It's interesting that he was in a wheel chair for ten years and stopped using it, I had heard that sort of thing can't happen from the placebo effect.
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Postby Cece » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:42 pm

from the article wrote:A placebo—as long as the patient thinks it may be real—causes the brain to unloose a cascade of chemicals whose makeup depends on the disease. Prominent among them in Parkinson's is dopamine, the very substance whose shortage is responsible for Parkinson's tremor, walking difficulties, and other movement problems. And the placebo effect grows with the stakes and the risks. Sham brain surgery, which is about as high-risk as it gets, produces a more prominent placebo effect than lesser-risk procedures.

This is interesting, at least specifically for Parkinsonian sham surgeries: dopamine is released by the brain as part of the placebo effect and dopamine is what's missing in Parkinson's disease.

Now if the placebo effect could only release myelin, as I have a touch of myelin missing, then we'd be getting somewhere....
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby Lyon » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:08 pm

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Postby CureIous » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:21 am

Lyon wrote:
concerned wrote:It's interesting that he was in a wheel chair for ten years and stopped using it, I had heard that sort of thing can't happen from the placebo effect.
So little is known about the placebo effect that, although people try to, it's impossible to define it's limits.


That would also by extension include it's limitations too... Come on Lyon don't just hone in on the lack of upside limits here.... ;)
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby 1eye » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:59 am

I can tell you one of its limits. It's impossible to stop people from chasing unicorns. Even the placebo effect is useless there.

They make good money trying, though, I hear.

"You are a booby, and I am going to put you into the booby hatch." -James Thurber "The Unicorn In The Garden"
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
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Postby Lyon » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:00 am

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Postby selkie » Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:58 pm

Well, if I can walk normally from a placebo effect or a scientifically proven treatment, do I care as long as I can walk? And if seeing a unicorn cures me, I'll be on the lookout for them.

Kidding aside, the placebo effect has just as valid a place in curing as any "scientific" treatment.
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Postby MS_mama » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:03 pm

another good read on placebo, on how they are getting stronger and baffling researchers:

http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo_effect?currentPage=all
dx RRMS Jun. 2009...on Copaxone and LDN and waiting for my turn to be "liberated"<br />
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Postby Lyon » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:08 pm

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Postby CureIous » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:01 am

Lyon wrote:
CureIous wrote:
Lyon wrote:So little is known about the placebo effect that, although people try to,
it's impossible to define it's limits
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That would also by extension include it's limitations too... Come on Lyon don't just hone in on the lack of upside limits here.... ;)
I'm sorry, did I only specify upper limits or were you reading what you THOUGHT I meant into it? 8)


I was reading college level in the 9th grade, trust me, I know what you meant. In this case however, I was considering the source. So maybe the placebo effect may not have as much an impact as one would think eh? IE CCSVI and the treatment thereof is having a significant impact on a significant number of people, not so easily discounted as placebo effect, THAT can also be very true according to your original statement. Just didn't want that part to get ignored, since at first blush one probably wouldn't be inferring downside to plaebo effect, only that it's impact has no known upper limits. Catch my drift?

Thanks for the red highlights though, nothing like colorful language ;)
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby CureIous » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:03 am

Lyon wrote:
CureIous wrote:
Lyon wrote:So little is known about the placebo effect that, although people try to,
it's impossible to define it's limits
.


That would also by extension include it's limitations too... Come on Lyon don't just hone in on the lack of upside limits here.... ;)
I'm sorry, did I only specify upper limits or were you reading what you THOUGHT I meant into it? 8)


I was reading college level in the 9th grade, trust me, I know what you meant. In this case however, I was considering the source. So maybe the placebo effect may not have as much an impact as one would think eh? IE CCSVI and the treatment thereof is having a significant impact on a significant number of people, not so easily discounted as placebo effect, THAT can also be very true according to your original statement. Just didn't want that part to get ignored, since at first blush one probably wouldn't be inferring downside to plaebo effect, only that it's impact has no known upper limits. Catch my drift?

Thanks for the red highlights though, nothing like colorful language ;)
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby BooBear » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:53 am

Well, it has been almost 48 hours since my liberation. I have better balance- that is undeniable- and things are very clear in some ways.

I think the Plavix is making me a bit woozy today- may be a bit before I get used to it- but overall I can't blame this on placebo because I am uncertain how I would get placebo results where I do not expect any results.
Three veins angioplastied.  One renewed life.  
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Postby debp » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:08 pm

but overall I can't blame this on placebo because I am uncertain how I would get placebo results where I do not expect any results.


But what kind of results does your subconscious expect? I hear that the subconscious mind can amplify the placebo effect. :)

This sham surgery was the same surgery except for the administration of a drug? The patients still had BRAIN surgery, that has to have some effect doesn't it? And was the subsequent decline because he didn't get the drug or because whatever they did to his brain healed?

That is my biggest concern about the Buffalo blind trial. If they have the same surgery except the balloon, who is to say there is no improvement to be expected? Maybe I am oversimplifying, but back to the plumbing analogies, aren't they snaking the drain? If they clear some minor obstruction with the catheter and someone feels better, is that placebo?
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Postby nicknewf » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:30 pm

For this very reason, I agree with the name liberation treatment. If you can game the placebo effect - go for it!
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