Does May Thurners cause demylination/CNS damage, or just DVT

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:33 am

hi i looked at what other kinds of deficiencies you see in may thurner, and noticed protein C. i also saw mention of elevated homocysteine.

i looked for homocysteine and protein C together and found this:

Homocysteine and Hemostasis: Pathogenetic Mechanisms Predisposing to Thrombosis
Peter C. Harpel, Xiaoxia Zhang and Wolfgang Borth
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abs ... uppl/1285S
Growing evidence suggests that moderately elevated levels of homocyteine are associated not only with arterial thrombosis and atherosclerosis but also with venous thrombosis as well. We have reviewed recent studies that indicate that homocysteine inhibits several different anticoagulant mechanisms that are mediated by the vascular endothelium. The protein C enzyme system appears to be one of the most important anticoagulant pathways in the blood. Homocysteine inhibits the expression and activity of endothelial cell surface thrombomodulin, the thrombin cofactor responsible for protein C activation.

one more on homocysteine and the vascular system:
Vascular dysfunction in monkeys with diet-induced hyperhomocyst(e)inemia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC507396/

then i searched for homocysteine and zinc, and then i searched on homocysteine and copper. zinc appears to lower homocysteine. there's definitely a connection between homocysteine and copper but i'm not sure i understand it yet so for now just one sample abstract on Hcy and Zn:

Effect of Zinc Supplementation on Serum Homocysteine in Type 2 Diabetic Patients with Microalbuminuria
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2712914/

check this out too:
Copper toxicity, oxidative stress, and antioxidant nutrients
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12821289
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:37 am

i can't find much on iliac vein compression and myelin/CNS.. will keep an eye out though.
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby adamt » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:47 am

thanks cece, the surgeon did say the blood flowed through the azygos fine, and watching the DVD it does seem to flow solidly up the azygos and 'spray' down the vein, after the bend.
its sprays a little bit slower than it flows up the vein, but not slowly like the ccsvi ijvs

i do have a lesion in the lower spine, which they found when diagnosed with MS 7 years ago



thank you jimmy very much for this info, i will also search the site you mentioned

it is a lot of info for me to take in and decipher, but i will try my best, thanks :) i really appreciate your help

Adam
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:10 am

yvw adam.

if you can swing three tests, see if you can get your copper, zinc and homocysteine checked.

i can't think of any other suggestion than to stop taking such high amounts of zinc and copper for a while.

i'd say you would need at least a week's 'washout' period with no supplements anyway, before you would be able to get a clean read from any blood tests.

if i may ask.. what else do you take on a daily basis?
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:28 am

FYI adam i found this:

Serum copper and zinc concentrations in patients with chronic hepatitis B.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15979489
"Serum zinc concentrations were 104+/-24.98 microg/dl in asymptomatic carriers, 97+/-16.03 microg/dl in chronic active hepatitis and 108+/-21.07 in healthy controls, respectively. Serum copper concentrations were 88+/-17.8 microg/dl in asymptomatic carriers, 86+/-20.02 microg/dl in patients with chronic active hepatitis B and 88+/-13.59 microg/dl in healthy controls, respectively."

and from that i made up this table of average cu and zn values in healthy controls:

Code: Select all
element   ug/dL   conversion   umol/L
zinc      108     0.153        16.524
copper     88     0.157        13.816


that 'healthy controls' zinc level is a little lower than i usually aim for (18.2 umol/L), but definitely above ms patient averages.

personally my highest zinc result was in the mid 16s, and my copper results tend to come back in the 18 to 19 umol/L range - i would much rather it was lower than the zinc result - and i don't take any supplemental copper at all.

anyway that's just so you know how your results compare to healthy controls when/if you have tests.

if you are not already, please be aware that ms patients and healthy controls tend to occupy different places under the 'normal' curve - tests that come back 'normal' can still be far from optimal.
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby adamt » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:44 pm

thanks jimmy,
i have sent you a PM to prevent going off topic on this thread :)
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