This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

So ive been liberated in the IJVs, azygos was fine, but i also have May Thurners- left illiac vein narrowing,

i only have tenderness/stinging in my left thigh and not Deep vein thrombosis, swelling etc.

As i only got liberated on Sunday i dont want to rush to get the left illiac vein ballooned/stented for at least one month, this is to not make too many changes at once so i wont know what is causing any changes

I have noticed since the ballooning of the IJVs the left leg thigh tenderness/stinging has increased and is more frequent.
im guessing this is because as blood now flows freely through the IJVs, more blood is getting blocked in the left illiac vein,
does that sound right?


But i was wondering can May Thurners cause demylination, lesions or CNS damage, as if it can i think i will have to get the May Thurners treated a/s/a/p

or is it just causing the slight discomfort of tender left thigh?

thanks

This might answer your question; it is from a previous post from May-Thurner and MS.

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Everybody here brings happiness, somebody by coming,others by leaving.  PPMS since 2000<br />

As in Nunzio's post, the reason May Thurners can harm the spinal cord is because the blood that should've gone through the May Thurners blockage is instead rerouted to the azygous which in ccsvi does not have the capacity to carry its own load, let alone the iliac vein's load too, and over time you get the spinal cord damage.

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"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition

oh dear, i guess i should get the MT ballooned/stented A,s,a,p then

or do you think i sould hold out for a few weeks to watch for changes/improvements first?


Cece - you said:
May Thurners blockage is instead rerouted to the azygous which in ccsvi does not have the capacity to carry its own load, let alone the iliac vein's load too, and over time you get the spinal cord damage.

As my Azygos was fine/normal and had No CCSVI, would this mean i wont get the spinal cord damage?

i can't answer that question adam but i've been having a think about all this:

i looked into DVT, and associated antithrombin (AT) deficiency (AT is not only anticoagulant but also anti-inflammatory and antiproliferative).

where AT is synthesized? in hepatocytes, the main tissue cells of the liver.

how does the body build liver tissue, so that it can make AT? here's what i found:

from Essentials of Stem Cell Biology:


from wikipedia:


from J Molecular Endocrinology:


can anything affect the amount of HNF4 available?
from Am J Pathology - an article on alcoholic mice:


so, possibly zinc repletion could optimize antithrombin synthesis and maybe prevent DVT???

however,

so, if DVT in may thurner syndrome is from antithrombin deficiency... and antithrombin deficiency is genetic...

could zinc deficiency affect a genetic problem...?

from J Human Nutrition: Human Zinc Deficiency
. or, the liver.

and lastly, recalling '(HNF-4), a liver-enriched, zinc-finger transcription factor' (same article Human Zinc Deficiency)


so it looks like yes, zinc deficiency could affect a genetic problem, especially in high cell turnover areas of the body like the liver.

we know that zinc tends to be in the lower end of the 'normal range' in MS patients, compared to healthy controls. could low zinc be linked to comorbities such as DVT in patients with more serious manifestations of may thurner syndrome?

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my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

thank you jimmy for this detailed reply, but was this posted in the wrong message?

i cant make out how this all applies to may thurners and increased tenderness of the left thigh since liberation and whether i should get treated for MT a.s.a.p?

it's a may thurner syndrome potential treatment theory. it would be cheap and non-invasive. you may want to find out what your zinc level is and optimize it, could have an effect on your ms and your may thurner syndrome because of the links described above.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

oh i see jimmy,

i always take 50mg zinc each morning with 2mg copper at night,

ill try increasing the zinc dose to 75-100mg every morning and hopefully that will alleviate my MT symptom - stinging/tender left thigh

thanks

Adam you may also want to check w/Dr. S on this or a vascular doctor. If you azygos is truly fine (and depending on your age), I'd think they wouldn't want to do anything invasive, just a guess. Maybe there's non-invasive ways like the supplements jimmylegs suggested. But for your own peace of mind, you may want to check w/a dr too

adam, yeeks!! do you do bloodwork so that you know where your copper/zinc ratio is at?

i would not say right off to add zinc. (edit: especially now that i can see your daily intakes of copper and zinc).. you might want to back off on the copper. hard to say without a lab result or two.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

oh right i didnt realise the ratio had to be precise,

but for the last 3 years i have been taking etween 50-100mg of zinc, and 2-8mg of copper,

aslong as im taking both zinc and copper, does the ratio matter so much ?

thanks Selkie, i have asked the question on Dr S's thread,

Im 25 . why wouldnt they want to do anything invasive ?
- it would just be a stent or balloon angioplasty of the left illiac , instead of the IJVs, which seems closer/easier than the IJVs

May Thurner treatment has been done for years whereas CCSVI treatment is new

cu/zn ratio is in a lot of literature on health. the levels and balance are quite important!

i would say your zinc intake is dangerously high and it's only the size of your copper intake that might *possibly* be keeping your zinc in a suboptimal state..high copper can still give the effect of low zinc... it's impossible to say without bloodwork.

i can't even really hypothesize as i have never heard of someone taking up to 100mg zn and up to 8mg cu per day, in the long term.

i will get you a bit more info on levels and ratios but seriously please get some tests, it's dangerous to have too much of these metals in your system.

i'll dig up some info for you. i'll look for possible connections to your symptom also.

ttfn

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

I don't honestly know, I'd recommend a doctor with MT experience to help with that decision. And even then the doc with MT experience won't have CCSVI experience.

Different docs find azgyous stenosis in different ratios; Dr. Zamboni found a lot of azgyous involvement, so I tend to think he's right and other docs are missing and undertreating it, but who knows?

Other thing to consider would be if you have any spinal cord involvement or lesions. They might indicate a azgyous or MT problem, I think, but so much not known still.

If the azygous is truly fine, then maybe it can handle the extra flow from the MT back-up. Just love (not) how big medical decisions are made on the strength of a 'maybe'...wish this were easier.

There is still risk in stenting a MT narrowing. Over time the stent could occlude and block the flow. But a doctor would help with the decision of if the benefit outweighs the risk.

adam, i put together a bunch of abstracts but why don't you go to
scholar.google.com
and paste in these search terms:

high cu/zn ratio patients controls

and have a scan of the study titles returned..

here are one or two pertinent results:

Significance of serum trace element status in patients with rheumatic heart disease
http://www.springerlink.com/content/906k0757nq123l3m/
...RHD patients had significantly lower serum concentrations of Se and Zn than control subjects (p<0.05 and p<0.001, respectively). However, the serum Cu concentration was significantly higher in RHD patients than in controls (1.93±0.59 μg/L vs 1.06±0.29 μg/L; p<0.001). Similarly, the Cu/Zn ratio in RHD patients was higher than in control subjects (4.70±0.92 vs 1.68±0.45; p<0.001)... We suggest that Se and Zn deficiency might be contributory factors in the development of rheumatic heart disease, and a high Cu concentration and a high Cu/Zn ratio might reflect an ongoing inflammatory process in this disease.

Analysis of serum copper and zinc concentrations in cancer patients
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m4874785647477k0/
...The aim of the present study was to compare the serum copper and zinc levels in patients with cancer of the lung (PC), breast (BC), gastrointestinal tract (GIC), and gynecological (GYNC) malignancy with progress of the disease. The results of the study have shown a significant increase in the mean total serum Cu levels and the serum Cu/Zn ratio in all patient groups with cancer compared to a control group..

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com