Antihistimines/CCSVI/MS

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Shueywho » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:59 am

Hi Selkie,

I used to take allergy medication daily in the spring and fall. I then started using a neti pot, at first daily then only once a week. I now find I don't need the allergy meds except on extreme days. I also got my mother using one as she was a huge pill popper for allergies, she now takes an allergy pill maybe once a week. I didn't believe it would work and I owned the neti pot for about a year before I got the nerve to try it, but now I swear by it.

I hope this helps with allergies, but it won't be sufficient for nerve pain.

Sheila
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Postby PCakes » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:26 am

selkie wrote:Since the pain arrives with strong winds & times of the year with pollen..

interesting..
stong winds = barometric swings = vascular effect
seasonal allergies = spring / fall = barometric swings = vascular effect

I found the following surfing for proof.. full credit to 'Landlady' @ 'philosophyforums.com'

#4 Posted Jan 24, 2010 - 9:28 PM:

I did some research on different existing theories that explain what might be causing the drowsiness and headache. My initial guess was that the barometric pressure causes an imbalance between the intracranial pressure and the rest of the body (along the lines of Monro-Kellie hypothesis), and the symptoms were somehow related to an attempt to equalize the pressure. So, I assumed the culprit was the pressure itself. Many of the explanations involving correlations between weather and headaches that I came across, however, point to possible changes in oxygen levels in the atmosphere, combined with the vascular theory as a main triggering mechanism.

The brain hypoxia theory suggests that a change in barometric pressure causes changes in oxygen levels in the atmosphere, which in turn cause changes in the blood oxygen levels. To compensate for lowered oxygen, the blood vessels dilate to bring more blood flow to the brain. There are many things that can cause blood vessels to dilate, of course, including diet and hormonal changes, but a change (decrease) in the blood oxygen would also have the same effect on the vascular system, namely vasodilation; and considering that one of the constants in all of the cases is the drop in atmospheric pressure, it would seem natural to assume that lowered oxygen level might definitely be a triggering mechanism. This could be easily corroborated (or alternatively, refuted) by monitoring of oxygen concentration in the air as the air pressure changes to see if, indeed, there is a decrease in oxygen concentration in the air as air pressure decreases.

Although it’s true that most of the brain is insensitive to pain, there are some sensory nerves that surround intracranial blood vessels, and as the blood vessels dilate they activate sensory nerves (in this particular case, the activation of trigeminal sensory nerves/Nerve V is suspected), thus causing a perception of pain. It was also mentioned that activating trigeminal nerves triggers the release of certain vasoactive neuropeptides which act as vasodilators, which further aggravate the symptoms.
The proponents of vascular theory point to the fact that when the patients are given vasodilators, the symptoms of the migraines got worse, and when they were given vasoconstrictors, the symptoms were diminished. This points to the fact that vascular theory definately plays a role in triggering headaches.

The hypoxia theory seems plausible to me for several reasons. One of the symptoms of brain hypoxia is drowsiness, which is one of the first things that I notice when the pressure is dropping. There are some studies which show that brain hypoxia is often a precursor to many migraines, as well. The hypoxia theory would also explain why this happens only when the pressure is dropping and not when it’s rising. And this theory is the only thing so far that could explain this fact.

However, I am mindful of the possibility that there could be some other contributing factors, as well. If pressure drop was the sole factor then I would have a headache every time there was a pressure drop, which is not usually the case. Some other factors that were mentioned were hormonal changes, especially change in estrogen levels. It’s possible that the pressure drop coincided with an estrogen drop and that somehow played in. It’s been shown that drop in estrogen levels leads to a drop in serotonin levels, which in turn cause the trigeminal system to release the same neuropeptides which cause vasodilation (specifically substance P). This was one of the explanations given as to why women are more susceptible to headaches/migraines then men.
I also came across an interesting study in which people who suffered from frequent migraines were shown to have low levels of vitamin D in their blood, so there might also be a relevant component of nutritional deficiency that might affect vascular health and contribute to sensitivity/pain. I haven’t had the time to look more in depth into this, but I think it would be interesting to follow this up, or at least keep it in mind.


Some sources, if you’re interested:

Vasodilation and Headache:
http://www.sfn.org/siteobjects/pub...F/ ... ctober.pdf
Pathophysiology of headaches:
http://www.merckmedicus.com/pp/us/...ne ... gy_sub.jsp
Headache movie (simplified):
http://www.davidson.edu/academic/p...ap ... .htm#movie
Vitamin D:
http://www.britannica.com/bps/addi...fo ... ery-Health

Edited by Landlady on Jan 24, 2010 - 9:34 PM. Reason: added links
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It’s been shown that drop in estrogen levels leads to a drop in serotonin levels, which in turn cause the trigeminal system to release the same neuropeptides which cause vasodilation (specifically substance P). This was one of the explanations given as to why women are more susceptible to headaches/migraines then men.
Last edited by PCakes on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hi all

Postby Gordon » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:09 am

Some time ago, I posted a note that is related to this. I find good relief by taking Advil Cold and Sinus.

This is an anti histimine I believe plus a decongestant.

Gord
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Postby selkie » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:59 pm

P cakes,

I didn't read all your post yet, but this is interesting. A friend of mine doesn't think she has CCSVI because she has improved after the birth of both of her children. She's breast feeding, so of course she has more hormones - which in turn dilate the veins, which might lead to the explanation that pregnant women experience remission during pregnancy. This does not mean they don't have CCSVI!!! I'm excited to tell her this.

To me, it only makes sense that anti-histimines are not good for people with cCSVI, as they restrict blood flow. But I'd still like to get Dr. S's opinion on that but I know he's busy right now.

If I ever do get to see an IR, you bet I'm going to ask. I'll ask my ENT but he's still skeptical about CCSVI, but hasn't ruled it out. My neuro is hopeless. Isn't it odd that the doctors who are open to the idea are often not in the neurology field??????

thanks - selkie
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Postby selkie » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:08 pm

Shueywho wrote:Hi Selkie,

I used to take allergy medication daily in the spring and fall. I then started using a neti pot, at first daily then only once a week. I now find I don't need the allergy meds except on extreme days. I also got my mother using one as she was a huge pill popper for allergies, she now takes an allergy pill maybe once a week. I didn't believe it would work and I owned the neti pot for about a year before I got the nerve to try it, but now I swear by it.

I hope this helps with allergies, but it won't be sufficient for nerve pain.

Sheila


Hi Sheila, I have absolutely no nasal problems - only the itching/burning all over my body. But since it only happens during windy days & when pollin is blooming, I have to assume it's allergy. At this point my ENT is also, though neither of us are ruling out that MS is a factor - Pcakes post might help explain a lot too.

Glad the neti pot works for you. Been trying to get my husband to use one as he does have nasal congestion.

s.
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Postby selkie » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:09 pm

Actually PCakes, women go into remission during pregancy not the opposite...
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Postby PCakes » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:04 pm

Hi Selkie,
Yes, to be honest I need to read a bit more to fully understand how pregnancy and nursing alter hormone levels. I felt this of interest to the ccsvi predominance in women..
It’s been shown that drop in estrogen levels leads to a drop in serotonin levels, which in turn cause the trigeminal system to release the same neuropeptides which cause vasodilation (specifically substance P). This was one of the explanations given as to why women are more susceptible to headaches/migraines then men.


..as far as your antihistamine question.. I've suffered seasonal allergies for 30 years and shudder to think that I may have further jeopardized my health with claritin. sigh
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Re: Antihistimines/CCSVI/MS

Postby Bethr » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:47 pm

selkie wrote:LDN - low dose naltrexone. One of the effects of LDN is angiogenesis, the creation of new blood vessels.


Hi Selkie, I noticed your post and thought you might be interested in this study, (mice, I know :lol: ), but very interesting in regards to our "phlebotomy anyone" thread, and the relief quite a few of us get from having blood drawn, even only small amounts.

Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol 299: H372-H378, 2010. First published May 21, 2010; doi:10.1152/ajpheart.00035.2010
0363-6135/10 $8.00
This Article


Google Scholar

Articles by Kawamura, I.
Articles by Minatoguchi, S.

PubMed


Repeated phlebotomy augments angiogenesis to improve blood flow in murine ischemic legsItta Kawamura,1 Genzou Takemura,1 Hiromitsu Kanamori,1 Toshiaki Takeyama,1 Tomonori Kawaguchi,1 Akiko Tsujimoto,1 Kazuko Goto,1 Rumi Maruyama,1 Takatomo Watanabe,1 Takeru Shiraki,1 Takuma Aoyama,1 Takako Fujiwara,2 Hisayoshi Fujiwara,3 and Shinya Minatoguchi1
1Department of Cardiology, Gifu University Graduate School of Medicine, Gifu; 2Department of Food Science, Kyoto Women's University, Kyoto; and 3Department of Cardiology, Hyogo Prefectural Amagasaki Hospital, Hyogo, Japan

Submitted January 12, 2010 ; accepted in final form May 18, 2010

Anemia may accelerate angiogenesis in ischemic organs through its ability to augment tissue hypoxia-induced generation of several known angiogenic factors and to increase erythropoietin levels, which are also potently angiogenic. We examined the effect of controlled phlebotomy (bloodletting) on blood flow in a mouse ischemic leg model. We ligated the right femoral artery of BALB/c mice. In the phlebotomy group, 200 µl of blood were drawn from the tail vein once a week. After 4 wk, blood flow in the ischemic leg was significantly better in the phlebotomy group (flow ratio of the ischemic to nonischemic leg, 0.87 ± 0.04) than the control group (0.59 ± 0.05, P < 0.05), and capillary density was significantly higher. Repeated phlebotomy increased serum erythropoietin levels as well as the expression of hypoxia-inducible transcription factor-1 and vascular endothelial growth factor and both the expression and activity of Akt and endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) in ischemic legs. Treatment with wortmannin or N-nitro-L-arginine methyl ester significantly attenuated the phlebotomy-induced improvement of blood flow. In addition, fluorescence-activated cell sorting analysis revealed an increase in circulating peripheral endothelial progenitor cells in the phlebotomy group, and treatment with AMD3100, a specific inhibitor of the chemokine receptor CXCR4, blocked the beneficial effect of phlebotomy. These findings suggest that repeated phlebotomy improves blood flow in ischemic legs through an angiogenic action that involves the Akt/eNOS pathway, endothelial progenitor cell mobilization, and their complicated cross talk. An adequately controlled phlebotomy might be one method by which to induce therapeutic angiogenesis.


ischemia; vascular biology



http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/299/2/H372
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Postby selkie » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:25 am

Bethr, interesting! In olden days they used to bleed people - true they didn't know what they were doing, but strange it's come up again in modern medicine.
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Postby Bethr » Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:46 am

Yes, I think they used to bleed you for anything and everything, but it does make you wonder that it must have given results in some cases or they wouldn't have latched onto it.

Funny how things come in circles :?
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