Antihistimines/CCSVI/MS

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Antihistimines/CCSVI/MS

Postby selkie » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:34 am

At another forum a brief topic was brougt up about alternative treatments for MS. Many of you may already know that antihistimines are used in MS to treat nerve pain, also used in Chrohn's & Parkinsons, as well as allergy treatment.

One member posted this:

"Finally I found a link between CCSVI and alternative treatments and supplements and why some MS patients found symptom relief:

Prokarin - combines histamine and caffeine. Both are known vasodilators (open the blood vessels).
LDN - low dose naltrexone. One of the effects of LDN is angiogenesis, the creation of new blood vessels.
BEE STINGS - increases histamine in the system, which creates vasodilation (opening of blood vessels).
EGCG - green tea extract- chelates iron from brain tissue and is an anti-oxidant.
HBO - hyperbaric oxygen treatments- increases oxygen delivery to the brain."

***************************************

Thinking on how these alternative treaments might affect CCSVi and venous blood flow I picked out this part of her post:

"BEE STINGS - increases histamine in the system, which creates vasodilation (opening of blood vessels)."

In MS antihistimines are taken to reduce nerve pain which I get so severly I want to pull my skin off. And it does help. I can't take benadryl and stay away from the drowsy kind so the antihisimines I take are Zyrtec & Allegra

But than I found out from an aricle I'll post the link below:

(paraphrasing) The article says antihistimines are used to treat diseases (other than allergies) such as Parkinsons' & Multiple Sclerosis. Earlier in the article it does state that antihistimies inhibit the nerve pain by blocking histimines - THIS CAUSES A CONSTRICTION OF BLOOD VEINS, so isn't it reasonable to assume antihistimines are contraindicated for people with CCSVI?

From the article:
"Because histamine is a major component of many stings and venom, antihistamines are commonly used to treat stings and bites. Antihistamines, H1 and H2 varieties, have also been used to reduce stiffness, control gastric secretion, motion sickness and vomiting, treat duodenal ulcers, and even as a treatment for Parkinson's disease, Crohn's disease, and acute multiple sclerosis."


Here's the link to the full article:

http://www.treatallergies.com/dyn/325/Histamine-and-Antihistamines.html

I think this is a question for Dr. S but he's going to be so swamped when he gets back. I'm worried as I take two per day or I absolutely can't stand the pain. Doesn't matter what antihistimine you take, they all act on histimines thru the same process.

But the question is, if we have CCSVI, should we be taking anti-histimines, particularly twice a day for doseages that are once a day?

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

s.
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Postby PCakes » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:56 am

Good morning Selkie,

Good topic!!
Prokarin - combines histamine and caffeine. Both are known vasodilators (open the blood vessels).

I'm not familiar with Prokarin but I thought that caffeine was a vasoconstrictor?

here's another thread that might help.. http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7272-.html
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Postby selkie » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:31 pm

My concern, and maybe someone who's already had angioplasty and is under the care of a doctor, is it dangerous to take anti-histimines if we have CCSVI?

It seems it would be if the constrict the veins?

And yet I can't live without taking two different kinds of antihistimines per day as the pain gets unbearable.

I guess this is a question for Dr. S...
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Postby HarryZ » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:51 pm

PCakes wrote:Good morning Selkie,

Good topic!!
Prokarin - combines histamine and caffeine. Both are known vasodilators (open the blood vessels).

I'm not familiar with Prokarin but I thought that caffeine was a vasoconstrictor?


I replied to this message earlier in the day but somewhere along the way it got lost.

There are some misconceptions about Prokarin when it comes to the role of caffeine. When Prokarin metabolizes in the body, H2 neuroreceptors are produced and these improve the conductivity of nerve impulses which effect several other physiological functions in your system.

The caffeine in Prokarin is used to slow down and regulate the histamine breakdown. Otherwise it would be out of your system in less than an hour. The amount of caffeine in a daily dosage of Prokarin would be the same as sipping on one cup of coffee over a 16 hour period, hardly enough to effect the average person in any way at all.

Unfortunately some MS docs have stated that it is the caffeine in Prokarin that helps reduce some of a patient's MS symptoms. These docs have made these comments from a position of ignorance which is truly sad. Probably the same docs who are trashing CCSVI as well!

The H1 histamine receptors are another matter and may not be good for people contemplating CCSVI. H1 receptors are not produced by Prokarin.

If anyone wants to read more about the theory of why Prokarin has helped reduce the symptoms in MS patients, you can go to www.edmsllc.com and learn more about it.

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Postby selkie » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Hi,

My question isn't about Prokarin.

It's about antihistimines. I'm taking two different kinds of antihistimines and still am in extreme pain.

My question is, do antihistimines constrict the blood vessels enough that it's a concern for people with CCSVI (who also have MS)?

thanks, selkie
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Postby Cece » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:16 pm

Early on, Dr. Sclafani commented on vasoconstriction and vasodilation. If I can find the quote easily, I'll post it here.

Not sure if this is the one I was thinking of, or if it's much help. From April 15th:
drsclafani wrote:
L wrote:Hello Dr Sciafani, hello all.

I would like to know if vasodillators might be able to alter the effects of CCSVI to any worthwhile degree.

My body has become thoroughly addicted to Chilli, a vasodillator. A bottle of Frank's hot sauce lasts me 3 days and my local curry house doesn't have the ingredients to produce a curry that's hot enough. I am starting to feel a little abnormal : ( But I can't help but feel that perhaps my body knows what's good for it.

Just typing this is making me think about the kitchen where there's a new bottle of a Jamaican hot sauce. I tried a little on the way back from the supermarket and it's pretty good..


you sound like one hot tamale.

i do not think that vasodilation is going to help you one bit. But i am not a dietician, just a purveyor of ccsvi, trying to put things into the context of the zamboni concepts.

I did a search of chili and cerebral blood flow and only came up with a bunch of stuff on cerebral blood flow in llamas studied in Chile

sorry i cannot be of more help.

but i say, eat what you love
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Postby selkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:42 am

duplicate
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Postby selkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:42 am

Hi Cece,

I appreciate the research. But that's not what I'm asking - I am NOT asking what will help dilate veins.

What I am asking, are anti-histimines HARMFUL to veins because they restrict them? I'm ONLY asking about anti-histimines.

I think I was unclear in my original question, so I'll rephrase:

Histimines dilate veins. Anti-histimines restrict them. So those of us who have severe nerve pain plus allergies are given anti-histimines, which help (or are supposed to help, I'm in quite a lot of pain but don't want the gaba drugs like neurontin).

I take two different anti-histimines a day: Zyrtec and Allegra (the doctor may change this because it's not helping the pain).

While I think the pain is part allergy (it's worse on windy days & when pollens are going off) and part MS, it's very much like that shingles nerve pain only all over my body; I take antihistimines for the pain from the allergies; however, it's interesting to note as I stated in my original post, that anti-histimines are actually used to treat MS, Parkinson's and other illnesses besides just allergies.

My question is, since histimines open the veins (but cause all kinds of horrible symptoms) and antihistimines (supposedly) relieve the symptoms but constrict the veins, are the anti-histimines therefore harmful to people with CCSVI??

The only reason I quoted the first article which seemed to confuse everyone was to bring out two points:

1) Histimines open veins

2) Anti-histiminies are often prescribed for people with MS who have nerve pain.

Are the anti-histimines harmful because they constrict the veins (thereby relieving the awful symptoms that histimines cause)???

Hope this clears up what I'm asking.

I'm not asking what dilates veins, but are anti-histimines harmful to veins?

s.
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Postby Motiak » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:27 am

Cece posted a quote from Dr. Sclafani where he says he doesn't think vasodilators would help with CCSVI. Therefore I would think that substances with the opposite affect likely wouldn't have a negative affect either.
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Postby selkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:09 pm

I'm Motiak, I'm sorry, you're still not understanding my question.

I'm not asking if about vascular dilaters.

I'm asking if anti-histimines are harmful? This is because they restrict blood flow. I'm thinking people aren't reading my posts, because I've stated this at least four times now.

I take two antihistimines per day because of extreme nerve pain & allergies. My question is, are antihistimines harmful? Period.
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Postby 1eye » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:25 pm

To put words in his mouth, I think he was saying vasodilation would not help: the condition is congenital abnormalities which are unlikely to be affected like they are by a balloon or a stent. But what I want to know is, AFTER treatment, will constrictors cause restenosis or clots? I can always fire up my nitro pump to dilate, but don't all these agents cause all vessels to loosen or tighten, including (and in my case a requirement) arteries? The other thing Dr. S. might have meant is that since both veins and arteries are affected, blood flow remains the same, I dunno.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:44 pm

Hmm. We really don't know. As has been said, if Dr. Sclafani was right that vasodilators don't much help, we might be able to assume the converse that vasoconstrictors like antihistamines don't much hurt either.

But going back to Cheer and all the information she put together in the course of this journey and, yes, I think there was a focus on getting rid of vasoconstrictors and adding in vasodilators.

So maybe, maybe not...it's not much of an answer!
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Postby selkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:04 pm

so we need a double blind study & maybe they'll figure it out in the year 2366? :twisted:
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Re: Antihistimines/CCSVI/MS

Postby NHE » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:52 pm

Hi Selkie,
I understand your question, but I don't have an answer for you.

selkie wrote:I'm in quite a lot of pain but don't want the gaba drugs like neurontin.


Have you ever tried any of the over the counter supplement forms of gaba? I just did a quick search at one retailer's site and found a plethora of options, here's one gaba supplement for example.

<shortened url>

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Postby selkie » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:01 am

No, I don't want gaba drugs (side effects). Since the pain arrives with strong winds & times of the year with pollen, I'm letting the ENT help me (my neuo is useless). If worse comes to worse I'll ask for an injection of steroids.

I've got the question posed to Dr. S - I just hope he can tell us if anti-histimines are harmful to blood flow (restrictive) or if it's negligible. I know they're not great for blood pressure problems, glaucoma, etc. because of the restrictve pressure on the veins.

We'll see what Dr. S says if he has time...
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