Doppler training

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby tazbo » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:12 am

forget it
Last edited by tazbo on Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CureIous » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:16 am

4k? You mean one month's worth of MS meds? Cost of one stent? Half the cost of my MRV? Less than cost of one overnight in an outpatient room of the hospital? So I can be trained in the latest diagnostic techniques on a state of the art machine that few other diagnostic centers have in a 1,000 mile radius?

Sounds like a scam to me.

Yes, the media is going to have an absolute field day with this, I'll go ahead and write some headliners for you:

"Discover of novel CCSVI theory of MS now offers specialized machine to detect it's presence"

Then in the subtitle underneath we will read:

However, critics unable to replicate findings on state of the art doppler ultrasound are wary of being charged to use Zamboni's "secret methods" to detect the condition he discovered

Or how about this one:
"CCSVI doctor at center of increasingly vocal controversy, angers some for profiting on his unproven theory"

And the subtitle:
"German and Swiss researchers unable to replicate his findings on state of the art machines, question whether offering secret diagnostic methods at this time is ethical"

Granted, there are many in the CCSVI world now who saw the writing on the wall and are suddenly jumping on the bandwagon to catch a piece of the pie, be it blog hits or simply refurbishing their bully pulpits, to of course the tried and true money angle.

I think if Zamboni were any of those, he would have relocated elsewhere where the government oversight is not so onerous, and opened up his own facility and got filthy stinking rich and world famous.

Instead, he pushed for further testing, just because some jumped the gun in the testing department and had lackluster results, doesn't negate the theory one whit, many others have bolstered his findings but that doesn't make good headlines of course.

And here we are, all this time later, and it's all coming full circle back to the UT angle. Bravo. Need one of these suckers on every corner with a properly trained tech. 4k? Kidding me right? Wanna see my hospital bill from Stanford?

One thing is for sure, there is a HUGE difference in the capabilities of someone who has done 1 or a handful of either diagnostic protocols and procedures, to someone who has done hundreds and learned all the nuances along the way. Dr. D would be a perfect example, there is no comparison with his knowledge base from patient 1 compared to patient 40. The very experienced UT tech who detected zero, and I've looked at the CD myself, there is nothing there, zero reflux, stenosis, malfunctioning valves or the funky septum in my RIJV may have been pleasantly surprised having a modern European machine and the proper training in transcranial color doppler.

I think though that she herself would happily pay 4k to be the NKOTB with the shiny Dx specialist card. I know I would in a heartbeat. Let alone if the institution wants to foot the bill, come on they don't pay to have people trained on new machines ever? Please. My companies pay to have us trained on safety on machines we've used dozens of times just to be sure. It amounts to many hundreds of man-hours at 100.00 a pop.

4k? Where do I sign up?

Mark.
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Re: Doppler training

Postby CureIous » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:22 am

costumenastional wrote:I dont know if this has already been posted. If so i missed it.

<shortened url>

Seems like the Italians are now training students and health care professionals in advanced doppler techniques for CCSVI.
Tuition Fee: 4.000,00 euro
Director: Prof. Paolo Zamboni

If someone knows how to contact the germans...


FYI the Europeans use commas in place of decimal points to denote currency fractions.

Example:
US-style 123,456.78 notation
European-style 123.456,78 notation
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby PCakes » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:29 am

CureIous wrote:4k? Where do I sign up?
Mark.


I was thinking the same thing.

Don't worry for the headlines..if they do arise they will serve only to highlight the giant pharma payola.. Dr Brandes will have a field day :)

Once this group is trained they will return to their clincs/hospitals/labs and share this knowledge with their colleagues. So much for sustainable income and wealth.
How much of the 4000,00 will Dr Zamboni see? likely very little, to none. Is he not in the employ of the University? Maybe a bonus? who knows?
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Postby scorpion » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:34 am

PCakes wrote:
scorpion wrote:How is it that many of you conspiracy buffs do not even think this is suspisious? I mean first Zamboni says he discovers 100% a correlation between CCSVI and MS in his intial subjects which has not even been close to being reproduced by other researchers. It sounds like not even the docotrs he works closely with can find this high of a connection between CCSVI and MS. Than we have the fact that a lot of cofusion among patients and researchers was caused by Zamboni not being upfront about his "secret method" he used to discover CCSVI in his patients. Now suddenly he has developed the "MyLabVinco" which I guess is somehow callibrated to find CCSVI that no other current ultrasound can seem to detect accurately. On top up of that he is offering training, for 4,000,000, euros that will enable the lucky few to be able to read his ultra CCSVI identifier machine and make a diagnosis of CCSVI. It would be nice if Zamboni would explain the technology he uses in the mylabvino that makes it more sensitive to finding and identifying CCSVI than the other thousands of dopplers around the world. The more I read about this guy the more I smell a rat. Initially he was portrayed a modern day hero but if he is such a hero wouldn't he want to help as many people as possible by his sharing his EXACT protocol for identifying CCSVI. Sorry guys. Any bit of hope I had about Zamboni and his original study being legit has completly gone down the tubes. As I have had said before in science ,over time, theories should become easier and easier to prove and it seems like Zamboni's just continues to get more elusive. I believe that further studies into CCSVI are warranted but ceratinly the proof is FAR from in the pudding. MyLabVinco. As Charlie Brown would say "GOOD GRIEF"!!!


Good morning/afternoon .. First it is 4,000 euros not 4,000,000!! 'good grief' :)... who would/could sign up? Next, there are costs associated with research.. Modern Day Hero or not, he is accountable for the money he spends and I'm guessing that the pharma's are not stepping up to assist. I am not a pharma conspirator, I've stated my opinions on this before.. they are pill manufacturers..it is not what they do. Simple. Move on. Dr Zamboni needs money to continue his research.. How do you propose he secure these funds otherwise?
Is there a possibility that some of these funds may be coming from the manfacturer of 'mylabvinco' (i am already calling this thing mylabvino) and for this support the good doctor is required to ensure that it's introduction is controlled and well advised?
Is it really more elusive? or are those 'trying' and failing having their papers published at lightening speed as maybe they have the resources and vested interest required to do so? hmmm?
Concerned, i support your questioning of motive and i only submit to offer up another view ;)
pc


Actually we are both the wrong. It is written as 4.000,000. I know you have not been one to write about "the CCSVI conspiracy" but almost every time someone questioned Zamboni's CCSVI theory( whether it was neuros, jouranlists, etc. ) they were said to have some kind of ulterior motive. Many times the reason for this ulterior motive, according to many, was money. How can the same group of people not be as equally critical of Zamboni??? Zamboni develops a theory, does not share the specfifcs of how he made the discovery, develops a tool that supposedly is the only one in the world that can accurately prove his theory, and now charges money so that people can be trained by HIM to see these blockages. I have gotten in trouble before by saying this but to me this smells of quackery. That said I do not see some grand conspiracy but instead a study realeased by a decent human being who was looking for certain results and actually believed he had them but now can not admit he was wrong. The other possibilty is that Zamboni has done everything possible to shroud his method of discovery in a cloak of secrecy which does not seem plausible at all but hey, who knows.
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Postby Rokkit » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:46 am

scorpion wrote:That said I do not see some grand conspiracy but instead a study realeased by a decent human being who was looking for certain results and actually believed he had them but now can not admit he was wrong. The other possibilty is that Zamboni has done everything possible to shroud his method of discovery in a cloak of secrecy which does not seem plausible at all but hey, who knows.

So it seems your bottom line at this point is that Zamboni, for whatever reason (innocent or not), is just plain wrong about CCSVI. If so, how do you explain the now hundreds of catheter venograms which have confirmed the presence of the these obstructions as predicted by Zamboni?
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Postby PCakes » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:53 am

scorpion wrote:That said I do not see some grand conspiracy but instead a study realeased by a decent human being ..


on this point ..we agree :)

I choose the Zamboni team. I believe there is basis to the theory, it certainly explains me. I feel that the other team has adequate support. Dr Zamboni is one doctor up against many. There are legions scrutinizing his work.
Support within the medical community is growing and after reading the number of times the vascular theory was squashed over the last century, without sound reason, I feel it's our job to make as much noise as possible to, this time, allow it's day.
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Postby Lyon » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:24 pm

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Postby LivabirdsHubbie » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:41 pm

Let's all remember that it is not Dr Zamboni's theory alone.
Was it not a german doctor 30 years ago that came up with this, sorry forgot his name... Also there is a Doctor in Saskatchewan Canada who came up with this as well in the 90's and no one there would listen to him, i can give more info on this doctor if you want..
It was Doctor Zamboni who now has brought it to the forefront.

All i have to say is that if this helps my wife then whatever he gets in his pocket he more than deserves and if i had millions i would certainly give him a good chunk of it.

How much do the Drug companies pocket from selling their drugs which do very little and in some cases do much more damage... even death
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Postby L » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:58 pm

Concerned - you mention a doctor travelling to Zamboni to check his technique, I think it was a Dutch IR, no?

Scorpion - you say that no one has got close to Zamboni's 100%. 90+% is reported by both DRs Simka and Sinan and there's 90% reported by Al OMari. That's close enough considering that Dr Zambonis patients were hand picked by Dr Salvi perhaps, thereby (I presume) ruling out misdiagnosis and CIS, no?
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Postby Rokkit » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:13 pm

Lyon wrote:
Rokkit wrote:How come some of you guys have such a hard time giving Zamboni the benefit of the doubt on anything?
I'm a Gardener and not a Scientist so I don't get to dictate which rules of science have to be followed but giving someone the benefit of the doubt is the same as taking them at their word and it only seems fair that everyone should play by the same rules. I personally am not comfortable taking every researcher in every field of science at their word.

I'm not talking about taking him at his word regarding his conclusions, I agree that would be ridiculous. His conclusions have to be verified. I'm talking about giving him the benefit of the doubt regarding his motives.
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Postby fernando » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:13 pm

How much is charged for training in a typical medical procedure ?
I do not know anything but it seems to me that 4000 E is not expensive at all.

In fact Simka is teaching doctors about his procedures (two doctors from Argentina are studying with him) and it would be no surprise if he charges for his services.
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Postby concerned » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:15 pm

Yes it was Dutch, I thought of that after I left the computer.
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Postby Lyon » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:32 pm

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Postby cheerleader » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:51 pm

Mamma mia---
it's a college course at the University of Ferrara. (Unife.it is the University's web site. That's where Dr. Zamboni is a professor) They charge a tuition, you get 60 credits and learn how to utilize the doppler technology. Even the Learning Annex charges tuition.....

The Esaote machine has long been the one Dr. Zamboni prefers and has helped redesign (because it's made it ITALY), but there are other intracranial dopplers that work, too. GEs got a spiffy one. The terrific thing about doppler technology is that you don't need contrast dye or radiation. Can't wait til Dr. Dake gets his techs trained. Jeff's spent too many hours in the tube for his blood flow to be scanned.

It was a year ago today I sat at the University of Bologna and heard a pretty impressive panel of doctors speak about the correlation of venous malformations and MS. And I didn't have to pay anything...they picked up the tab. Now, there's a scandal! :)
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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