Doppler training

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Doppler training

Postby costumenastional » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:45 pm

I dont know if this has already been posted. If so i missed it.

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Seems like the Italians are now training students and health care professionals in advanced doppler techniques for CCSVI.
Tuition Fee: 4.000,00 euro
Director: Prof. Paolo Zamboni

If someone knows how to contact the germans...
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Postby concerned » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:22 am

I thought either the germans or the swedes said that they were going to train with Zamboni to see if their technique was off or something.

I know Zivadinov said he was going to re-evaluate the BNAC diagnostic numbers in light of the modified trans-cranial doppler that Zamboni commercialized.

It seems one can only detect venous abnormalities properly if one has Zamboni's machine and course, which obviously come at a price. It seems odd that he's offering these things for sale before his theory has been tested and proven.

It sounds like a lot of vested interest to me.
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Postby costumenastional » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:27 am

It may sound like whatever, but nothing is for free in this wonderful world friend. Especially MS drugs.
Having said that i should remind you that planning and materializing such a scientific and important course comes with expenses that i wouldn't expect Zamboni to cover.
"It seems odd that he's offering these things for sale before his theory has been tested and proven. " you say. For me, it would be odd if we were expecting his theory to be proven by a miracle or something.
So let's just hope more and more will become better in this cause obviously we need all we can get.

edit: i haven't heard that they are wiling to train with Zamboni. Even so, they should probably have done it before they conducted those "trials" of theirs and publish those suspicious results.
Last edited by costumenastional on Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby costumenastional » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:56 am

bozi wrote:Many hospitals worldwide promote CCSVI procedures, but seems just few has this special equipment.


I think this is very important to notice as well as the fact that Zamboni is way ahead in researching this field.
Being a pioneer has its difficulties but it looks like he will prevail in time and hopefully many will follow his lead and try to really help us somehow for a change.
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Postby frodo » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:10 am

Not sure if this is good or bad. On one hand, this means that he is really sure about his theory, and also that very soon the mysterious procedure for diagnosis will not be a mystery anymore.

On the other hand, it seems that he really want to cash in for his discovery and this will sparks critics. Maybe this will slow adoption, or maybe it will accelerate it. Maybe is good that there is a big amount of money involved.

The sad part is that maybe this is why he was not describing the complete procedure in his articles. Let's hope that now the information will run faster.
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Postby costumenastional » Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:25 am

Yes, well... i think that professionals that intent to treat patients for money can afford the 4k. Let's not forget that no "liberation" is being done for free yet. So, making sure they do it the best way possible is something that should be taken for granted.
And i cant see how he could train people just by publishing his methods. I know I wouldn't. Not if i wanted to stay on top of it. Imagine someone messing up with the procedure because he didn't get it right when he read the article.

Knowledge has a cost. It may be money, time, effort, whatever. Wiling is the catalyst. 4000 is not that much considered that every person that masters the technique can help many others to become familiar with it down the road.
So, I posted this cause some of us may know doctors wiling to learn by paying a small amount of money.
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vested interest

Postby LivabirdsHubbie » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:04 am

concerned wrote:I thought either the germans or the swedes said that they were going to train with Zamboni to see if their technique was off or something.

I know Zivadinov said he was going to re-evaluate the BNAC diagnostic numbers in light of the modified trans-cranial doppler that Zamboni commercialized.

It seems one can only detect venous abnormalities properly if one has Zamboni's machine and course, which obviously come at a price. It seems odd that he's offering these things for sale before his theory has been tested and proven.

It sounds like a lot of vested interest to me.


Concerned,
no more vested interest than MS Societies, Neurologists and Drug Companies lining each others pockets !!!!!
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Re: vested interest

Postby concerned » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:00 am

LivabirdsHubbie wrote:
concerned wrote:I thought either the germans or the swedes said that they were going to train with Zamboni to see if their technique was off or something.

I know Zivadinov said he was going to re-evaluate the BNAC diagnostic numbers in light of the modified trans-cranial doppler that Zamboni commercialized.

It seems one can only detect venous abnormalities properly if one has Zamboni's machine and course, which obviously come at a price. It seems odd that he's offering these things for sale before his theory has been tested and proven.

It sounds like a lot of vested interest to me.


Concerned,
no more vested interest than MS Societies, Neurologists and Drug Companies lining each others pockets !!!!!


Sure. I never said that they didn't have a vested interest in MS.
Just that Zamboni and friends are lining their pockets too.
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Postby scorpion » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:43 am

bozi wrote:If I may add sth. The Echo Doppler which Zamboni developed is called MyLabVinco. It seems to be claimed to be the only product designed for the diagnosis of CCSVI - produced by Esaote - Premium Echo Doppler Ultrasound system. It integrates the Zamboni protocols, but also guarantees and certificates the training of the doctors. Seems it guarantees 100% reliable answer if there is venous stenosis or not.
Many hospitals worldwide promote CCSVI procedures, but seems just few has this special equipment.



How is it that many of you conspiracy buffs do not even think this is suspisious? I mean first Zamboni says he discovers 100% a correlation between CCSVI and MS in his intial subjects which has not even been close to being reproduced by other researchers. It sounds like not even the docotrs he works closely with can find this high of a connection between CCSVI and MS. Than we have the fact that a lot of cofusion among patients and researchers was caused by Zamboni not being upfront about his "secret method" he used to discover CCSVI in his patients. Now suddenly he has developed the "MyLabVinco" which I guess is somehow callibrated to find CCSVI that no other current ultrasound can seem to detect accurately. On top up of that he is offering training, for 4.000,000, euros that will enable the lucky few to be able to read his ultra CCSVI identifier machine and make a diagnosis of CCSVI. It would be nice if Zamboni would explain the technology he uses in the mylabvino that makes it more sensitive to finding and identifying CCSVI than the other thousands of dopplers around the world. The more I read about this guy the more I smell a rat. Initially he was portrayed a modern day hero but if he is such a hero wouldn't he want to help as many people as possible by his sharing his EXACT protocol for identifying CCSVI. Sorry guys. Any bit of hope I had about Zamboni and his original study being legit has completly gone down the tubes. As I have had said before in science ,over time, theories should become easier and easier to prove and it seems like Zamboni's just continues to get more elusive. I believe that further studies into CCSVI are warranted but ceratinly the proof is FAR from in the pudding. MyLabVinco. As Charlie Brown would say "GOOD GRIEF"!!!
Last edited by scorpion on Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: vested interest

Postby LivabirdsHubbie » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:45 am

concerned wrote:
LivabirdsHubbie wrote:
concerned wrote:I thought either the germans or the swedes said that they were going to train with Zamboni to see if their technique was off or something.

I know Zivadinov said he was going to re-evaluate the BNAC diagnostic numbers in light of the modified trans-cranial doppler that Zamboni commercialized.

It seems one can only detect venous abnormalities properly if one has Zamboni's machine and course, which obviously come at a price. It seems odd that he's offering these things for sale before his theory has been tested and proven.

It sounds like a lot of vested interest to me.


Concerned,
no more vested interest than MS Societies, Neurologists and Drug Companies lining each others pockets !!!!!


Sure. I never said that they didn't have a vested interest in MS.
Just that Zamboni and friends are lining their pockets too.


that may be true, i would not know, but i do not agree that they can only detect using this specific dopler, also this would be more like a one off cost as opposed to the billions the drug companies make each year from MS patients
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Postby PCakes » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:17 am

scorpion wrote:How is it that many of you conspiracy buffs do not even think this is suspisious? I mean first Zamboni says he discovers 100% a correlation between CCSVI and MS in his intial subjects which has not even been close to being reproduced by other researchers. It sounds like not even the docotrs he works closely with can find this high of a connection between CCSVI and MS. Than we have the fact that a lot of cofusion among patients and researchers was caused by Zamboni not being upfront about his "secret method" he used to discover CCSVI in his patients. Now suddenly he has developed the "MyLabVinco" which I guess is somehow callibrated to find CCSVI that no other current ultrasound can seem to detect accurately. On top up of that he is offering training, for 4,000,000, euros that will enable the lucky few to be able to read his ultra CCSVI identifier machine and make a diagnosis of CCSVI. It would be nice if Zamboni would explain the technology he uses in the mylabvino that makes it more sensitive to finding and identifying CCSVI than the other thousands of dopplers around the world. The more I read about this guy the more I smell a rat. Initially he was portrayed a modern day hero but if he is such a hero wouldn't he want to help as many people as possible by his sharing his EXACT protocol for identifying CCSVI. Sorry guys. Any bit of hope I had about Zamboni and his original study being legit has completly gone down the tubes. As I have had said before in science ,over time, theories should become easier and easier to prove and it seems like Zamboni's just continues to get more elusive. I believe that further studies into CCSVI are warranted but ceratinly the proof is FAR from in the pudding. MyLabVinco. As Charlie Brown would say "GOOD GRIEF"!!!


Good morning/afternoon .. First it is 4,000 euros not 4,000,000!! 'good grief' :)... who would/could sign up? Next, there are costs associated with research.. Modern Day Hero or not, he is accountable for the money he spends and I'm guessing that the pharma's are not stepping up to assist. I am not a pharma conspirator, I've stated my opinions on this before.. they are pill manufacturers..it is not what they do. Simple. Move on. Dr Zamboni needs money to continue his research.. How do you propose he secure these funds otherwise?
Is there a possibility that some of these funds may be coming from the manfacturer of 'mylabvinco' (i am already calling this thing mylabvino) and for this support the good doctor is required to ensure that it's introduction is controlled and well advised?
Is it really more elusive? or are those 'trying' and failing having their papers published at lightening speed as maybe they have the resources and vested interest required to do so? hmmm?
Concerned, i support your questioning of motive and i only submit to offer up another view ;)
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Postby Lyon » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:33 am

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ccsvi

Postby blossom » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:44 am

ok, so dr. zambonni may make a few bucks from his machine. so what! like someone else said-why shouldn't he. if there is the chance that this will make detecting vein problems more of a shoe in i think it is great. the training part that is offered with this may start to bring things together more and be the incentive that is needed by some dr.'s that feel they can wing it. true there are dr.'s like dr. dake, dr. sclafani and some others that made a trip to italy to check things out but they all are not going to be able do this. i got tested-i got treated and so far no good news to report but i still have great respect for zambonni and the others who are pioneering this and all have said this is not the total answer. who knows maybe they missed something that zambonni's machine and training would otherwise have found. time will tell. but to expect anyone to invest their own time and money with no compensation isn't even sensible. maybe if zambonni were a cazillionair but i doubt that he. i hope that every hosp. buys one and they are trained and every person that wants to get tested will be able to leave with more of a peace of mind that nothing was missed. but i'm sure as time passes there are gonna be a lot of new machines and ideas connected to ccsvi. it may not be the cure but i feel the veins will be the path leading to a lot of unanswered questions about ms. so whatever it takes. lots of others have gotten rich off us and really never answered anything or had the results that some have been fortunate enough to have gotten after being treated for ccsvi.
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Postby Lyon » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:07 am

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Postby Rokkit » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:11 am

Maybe CCSVI is difficult to diagnose with ultrasound. That doesn't have anything to do with how viable it is as a theory. Maybe Zamboni is concerned that the difficulties will lead to inconsistencies and flawed studies that could be very detrimental to the advancement of CCSVI research. If so, an excellent solution would be for him to provide a machine that he knows will work well and consistently.

Unless someone has access to Zamboni's financial info on this, no one knows if he's even making a dime off these things. It could just as easily be a break-even proposition to get the machines out there that he knows need to be out there. Or, maybe all profit is being directly applied back to the research.

How come some of you guys have such a hard time giving Zamboni the benefit of the doubt on anything?
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