Upper cervical spine chiropractic adjustments

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby David1949 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:39 pm

Personally I don't recall sustaining any head or neck injuries that might have caused my MS. But a friend of mine slipped on a dock and took a nasty whack on the head. Not long after that he started having memory problems and was later dxed with a form of Dementia. I always suspected the whack on the head was the cause of it, but his doctors dismissed that idea.
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Postby costumenastional » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:39 am

emess2 wrote:I started looking at alternatives when the neuros gave up on me - I wish they would have let me go sooner!


No comments on that.

shye wrote:I was told by MD's that I would end up with a broken neck if I saw a chiropractor!


And this is the part we laugh.

I really believe that most MS damages are permanent. I also believe that apart from CCSVI, neck trauma etc, there are genetic factors or even other diseases which trigger auto immune reaction. I am not sure that "liberation" or chiropractic adjustment will make MS disappear but wherever problems like that exist they should be fixed. I know for a fact that by suppressing the immune system one can't travel far but by addressing the things that are obviously wrong there is a chance that some relief will be obtained.
I also don't believe that all MS patients have CCSVI or fractured bones.
I mostly see MS like something inside us that was waiting to happen.

Even though Zamboni is obviously right about many things, he is not suggesting that CCSVI is THE solution for all of us. He knows better.
Even though chiropractors say that spinal cord problems may lead to MS like symptoms they cannot prove it yet.

One thing neurologists are right for (the only thing) is that autoimmunity takes place. Even if it is secondary, like Zamboni suggests who can tell me that by fixing my veins it will cease? Why not continue? No guarantees there whatsoever. I mean, our immune system has started to misbehave no?
Same goes for chiros. They are willing to help but there is no guarantee it ll work in the short or in the long term.

I strongly believe that each and every one of us must take action for himself/herself. As long MS remains a ghost disease we cannot put our lives in just one man's hands.
Don't expect from neuros to agree with vascular surgeons, dont expect vascular surgeons to agree with chiropractors dont expect chiropractors to agree with neuros and so forth. It is us who will primarily help ourselves making the best decisions possible. As long as drugs remain out of the picture i dont see any harm exploring every option out there.

Neurologists have been PROVEN clueless. Really, makes you wonder what the hell they study all these years. Economics??? Statistical analysis? What???
Nowadays vascular surgeons are scratching the surface. If you want my opinion, they should have done it years ago instead of waiting until Zamboni's wife got sick. It s 2010 and they are not sure how the blood should flow in the main brain drainage veins so there you go. Chiropractors also have some theories and in some cases, the x rays to back it up.

All i am saying is that there is no single solution here. Who would have told me 2 years ago that my veins are blocked and my bones are misaligned? I was super healthy. Or so i thought.

Should i choose to stop searching after i was "liberated"? Believe me, i would if this was the case. But improvements were only partial. Is there anyone out there to tell me that that was my only problem? Is there anyone that can prove Zamboni or Flanagan wrong? Is there anyone that can make me choose between the two?

No. I can do whatever the hell i want. Until they have proof. Until then, everything is experimental and because living with MS is worse than death i am wiling to give everything that makes sense a try.
And of course i have no medical knowledge. I can only make decisions based on my simple logic. Not by putting my trust on people who take a shitload of money from me for doing NOTHING xcept from poisoning me. I prefer paying less money for SOMETHING.

Sorry, i prefer to listen only to myself.

And my body is telling me that there is something still going terribly wrong. Dr Flanagan was right in my case or so it seems. Is he right about all of us? Well, i am telling you that he never said so.

Seriously, after my "liberation" there were significant improvements, i swear to God. But some other things continued to deteriorate. And just because the "liberation" really helped, i thought that there might be indeed a chance i can fight this f.....g thing.
Now with what Dr Koontz SHOWED to me i hope for further improvements.

Please, check out Dr Flanagan's blog.

http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/

I ll keep you all posted because every single piece of info really matters when you are blind.
My second appointment with Dr Koontz is on Tuesday afternoon. See you on Wednesday.

blossom wrote:hope to hear more good news from you so talented little costume.


:)
Last edited by costumenastional on Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:46 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Postby zap » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:18 pm

I've had lots of concussions throughout life, and tightness, popping, and grinding where my neck joins my skull ... memory issues since childhood, etc, I am intrigued by this line if inquiry!
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Postby shye » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:35 pm

follow up on it Zap! Before my major concussion and neck incident, I also had had numerous fairly severe head injuries over span of childhood--with the neck problems you describe so well, brain fog, as well as other problems--the chiro is not the only answer, but gave the most graphic, immediate change in feeling--could think better immediately, as well as feel more. but it was a long trek with other modalities used along the way--cranio-sacral work, exercises, diet changes, Inclined Bed Therapy, etc etc. Still need these other modalities, and my atlas is starting to rotate again, so needs attention. Years of being ill are not corrected with just a few adjustments--but when you find the correct adjustments for you, you KNOW you are the way to healing.
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Postby Johnson » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:32 pm

zap wrote:I've had lots of concussions throughout life, and tightness, popping, and grinding where my neck joins my skull ...
Me three! And TMJ problems, developed a crooked smile over the years... I woke up one morning 25 years ago with my chin locked onto my left shoulder. It was jammed and I could not move my head. I went to Emergency, where the doc grabbed my head and wrenched it. In retrospect, I am probably lucky not to be paralyzed. My first chiropractic appt. was that day. Sometimes my leck still nocks, and I mux ip wy mords. I recently described that "I feel like I'm living in my brain-stem" - due to a pea-soup cog-fog.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby costumenastional » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:55 am

I am waiting for my x ray where the misalignment of my Atlas and Axis can be seen in order to update this post. Hopefully Dr Koontz will help me cause i can't extract them by my cd using that weird software.

I should let you know that during my second visit on Tuesday no adjustment was needed because it seems (by the thermal scans like those that can be seen in the linked pdf) that i am holding the adjustment i was given the first time for the time being.
I will see Dr Koontz next Tuesday.

I ve been reading quite a bit about chiropractic adjustments and as always i am confused. Mainly because there are so many cases of MS patients who have CCSVI or neck trauma, but still no one seemed to care until now.

I think there is something into this just like with CCSVI.

I have not felt any changes for better or worse so far MS wise. There was that weird nerve pain from my neck down to my right shoulder last night but fortunately it didn't last.
I should mention that that terrible neck pain i had these last days has subsided also but this is kind of normal. When it starts, it usually wont last more than a week. Maybe the adjustment helped also, maybe not.

I will update as soon as i have more interesting news.
In the mean time here s a good read:

http://www.erinelster.com/files/jvsr%20ms%20article.pdf
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Postby whyRwehere » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:00 am

well, read this, too. Don't know if it is true, though:
Link
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Postby costumenastional » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:11 am

It seems true... Debbie sounds very angry and there must be a reason.
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Postby shye » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:06 pm

So, this particular dr could be difficult to deal with--but that does not negate the principles behind the NUCCA and similar modalities.
Thru the years I have seen a number of chiropractors--some absolutely dreadful, seemed to make things worse--some helped some problems, but not all of them, etc etc. Yet others found these same chiros quite okay for their problems.
Was just extraordinarily lucky to finally find one who had not only a great personality and manner, but was more than competent, and listened to me and then proceeded to explore, and heal. The Atlas and C1 are not areas that all chiropractors are adept with, or even want to deal with.
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Postby NZer1 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:28 pm

I have just purchased a copy of Dr. Flanagans book. His work is mostly about the structure of the skull and the importance of cervical support for the brain and flow of blood and CSF.
It is important to know that he is a chiropractor and more importantly that he has studied in great depth the flow issues related to skull malformations and issues of flow in the neck area, (25 plus years)
The book has many insights that align with Dr. Schelling and Dr. Zamboni.
There is very important insights to flow dynamics through this part of brain drainage that give reason for researchers and scientists to study how this is equally as important as the lower flow outlets which are external. There is internal flow in the spinal cord that is as much of importance in diseases like ours.
I recommend reading the book, it has answers to problems that are being found already by IR's (Simka for example with the 33% wow improvements,33% mild improvement and the balance with no obvious improvements from Angio Treatment). There is drainage through outlets other than the external Jugulars, for example the spinal cord is drained lower down as Zamboni is finding and that will be very important in symptom improvement.
Find a copy and have a read please!
Regards Nigel.
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Postby shye » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 pm

thanks for the book review Nigel--have been meaning to order it, just know didn't have time to read now. But sounds important enough to make sure I have it on hand, so make sure i do get to it.
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Postby Brainteaser » Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:21 pm

I think it's time for some healthy skepticism.

Whooa! - All this upper spinal stuff needs to stop immediately until the neuros and MS Society are all on board for a 25 year study and someone can point Dr Freedman towards the vertebrae and veins in question! :wink:

Seriously, well done costume - your research is what this site is all about.

Phil
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Postby KikiT » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:23 pm

I have been seeing a chiro since I was diagnosed 10 yrs ago. Not just any chiro and not every week..I go as needed...usually after a fall or after 6 weeks adjustment not holding.
I used to go to a NUCCA trained chiro, who has moved and now I have found a fabulous method called ATLAS ORTHOGONAL . My original chiro told me either NUCCA or Atlas Orthogonal are good for MS. It works on vibrating the Atlas to correct posiition and is so gentle you don't feel anything except instant relief of back pain, foot drop improves,hip pain .and neck pain..gone. You get to know your body, so when my foot is dragging more than normal, or I am losing balance backwards, I know I need an adjustment. Any other chiro method is too rough and can do damage...be careful. I now take private pilates training and have not needed an adjustment in 3months!! I am on Long Island NY if anyone needs chiro name. PM me. She is in New Hyde Park.
It is just amazing that it helps so much.
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Postby costumenastional » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:00 am

KiKiT, thanks for your insights friend. Dr Koontz uses Kale's method.

May i ask if you are on meds for your MS?

I would also like to know if your x rays were conclusive about if there are/were serious subluxations in your upper cervical spine. And if so what kind? How did it happen?

I only ask because i worry about MS patients being carried out and try to have adjustments even if there is no apparent reason.
My experience with chiropractors so far has been nothing but positive but i wouldn't take an oath about all of them if you know what i mean.
If Dr. Koontz had failed to SHOW obvious problems to me i would be very skeptical about having any kind of adjustments in my neck. It seems that i have a strong case but how about others? How about you?

Hope to hear from you and also from others on this matter.
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Postby shye » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:11 am

My xrays show lack of curvature in neck, subluxations, and Atlas rotation--recumbant MRI shows problem with C 5-C6 (or 6-7, can't recall exactly offhand)--drs did not evaluate MRI for subluxations, etc

work on Atlas with chiropractor helped amazingly.

But that chiro now on leave, so looking for another that will work on Atlas.
Not finding one easily--any of the good chiros in NYC are no longer taking my insurance, so am faced with having to spend a lot for intial visits, in order to just find a chiro that is good.
Am currently trying to contact an osteopathic dr who is considered very good in osteocranial manipulation--have left a message with her to see if she could help with the atlas--will post if she can, because would give a number of us another channel for getting help.
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