Upper cervical spine chiropractic adjustments

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby costumenastional » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:19 am

Thanks Shye. I follow your discussion with Dr Flanagan. Any accidents you remember off?
Good luck with finding a good doctor.
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Postby fernando » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:28 am

Well I have been experiencing some definite good results.

One of the doctors that diagnosed me with CCSVI found that my left leg is shorter (10 mm, about half an inch) than the right one. This situation leads to a curved spine because the head tries to stay straight. This condition is very common among normal people but often overlooked.

In my case, after almost a month of wearing a supplemental heel on my left shoe I can say that my Lhermitte has almost disappeared and I feel my left leg stronger.

I only say that there is the possibility that at least some of my symptoms are not MS related.
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Postby shye » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:35 am

Hi Costumenastional,
I likewise follow your posts. Yes, severe trauma, concussion, to head and neck in "83--never addressed properly by any type of dr. Been in chronic pain since. Also, when in early teens, got head smashed badly, affecting teeth, head and neck. Only got some dental treatment at that time, no one addressed neck and head issues. Neck always a problem after that, head aches frequent. But was always told to avoid chiropractors!
The trauma affected mood and thinking also, slowed down greatly in all respects--brain, body.

I did get a return call just now from the osteopathic dr--says she treats Atlas, but not with the movements done by chiro. I have had osteopathic manipulations done, but were not particularly helpful for Atlas. But this DO is exceptionally well recommended; I read up on her, and I am willing to see her a few times and see where we get; especially since the Chiro did such a great initial job in correcting the Atlas, now neck in pain again but Atlas seems just slightly rotated, so I am willing to think maybe just osteo manipulations needed at this point.
Her first appt (10/12) will be 1 1/2 hours! this is unheard of here in NYC (unless you are paying top dollars, and even then, not usual to get 1 1/2 hours). so am already impressed. I think the follow ups are 45-60 minutes.
(and she does know some chiros, so I am assuming if we do not get results, she will refer me on).
Will let you know how the 10/12 visit goes.
Incidently, I got this Osteo's name from my current dentist, who is a neuromuscular dentist. Too long to go into the saga that got me to him (som really crazy super inept dental work), but he does not want to correct anyone's teeth until they see a chiro or osteopath! ALL IS CONECTED OF COURSE. He has also given me an excellent exercise that has helped my neck immensely. Can PM this if you want it.
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Postby costumenastional » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:52 pm

Thanks for the answers guys. No Shye, Dr Koontz advised me to not stress my neck at this point.

Here is the mess i got into after i crashed with my motorbike in 2000. The arrow shows the misalignment of the Axis. This triangle should be in the center. Apart from this, the atlas, which is right above is messed up also but unfortunately, Dr Koontz can't extract the picture with the software metrics from the cd. I saw it and it doesn't look good either. The demyelinated area is exactly at my Axis level. My lower cervical spine is also damaged because of the chronic upper problem. If you try to see the axis and the atlas as a whole you will realize that my head is standing in a very wrong position all these years.

The most amazing thing in this story is the fact that dr Flanagan knew that something like that was going on only by reading my symptoms in my so called blog. He was 100% right and I owe him my life. This is not an overstatement.

Image

Hopefully, Dr Koontz will explain to all of us in more detail soon cause i invited him to come over and answer some of your questions. I can't promise anything but he told me he will give it some serious thinking. I also invited Dr Flanagan but it was only yesterday so...

All in all, i think every one wiling to help should come on board. There s no room for elitism from doctors to doctors. After reading Dr. Flanagan's blog i realized that MS cannot be only about stenosed jugulars and azy. The failure of the liberation treatment to help all of us is the proof.
Of course MS cannot be only about cervical trauma either.
MS is the reaction of our bodies to something and we should try to find what this something is.
The existing imaging technology can help and given the fact that most of us in here can filter junk from credible info i see this picture as an opportunity to push for further research.

Please, support research. Call your chiropractors, your vascular surgeons, everyone even your neurologists (or not) to share information. We changed everything with CCSVI. We can't quit now. MAKE THEM WORK TOGETHER. The sooner the better.

In Italy, dr Conicello (Dr Koontz will talk with him about posting here also) is doing chiropractic adjustments to MS patients in a hospital were he works with NEUROLOGISTS!!!!
Dr Koontz also told me that he would love to do the same in Greece. Of course i advised him not to hold his breath. The point is that this is the only way MS will be cured sometime.
And TiMS is a good place for them to join forces.

Some day...
Last edited by costumenastional on Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:40 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Johnson » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:47 am

Yikes!

Good for you, xostumesnational for keeping on digging. You seem to be on to something important. I hope that you find some answers; for you, and for everyone.

I think that it is critical that we find our own, individual causes of CCSVI. I think that it might be very individual, despite the consensus of the IUP.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby costumenastional » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:01 am

I found my answers friend. There is not even a single doubt in my mind any more about what's wrong with me.
The question is if i can be helped and this will take time to answer since what is shown above is a serious problem. I wont undergo surgery for this. Only chiro adjustments.

If some of us find their answer too it will be just as awesome as it is for me.
My mind is at ease now you know? I know my enemy.
I realize that many will say "well ok, but this has nothing to do with me".
And this is normal. Just one small detail:
I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH MS LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN HERE BY A NUMBER OF MS "SPECIALISTS" AND I WAS OFFERED THE SAME SHIT FOR TREATMENTS. Everyone in the bucket... I am sooo trying to behave here...

Please remember that there was no flow detected in my jugs by doppler pre op either. Thus, liberation helped me but didn't liberate me. Nevertheless, all these are solid proof that Zamboni's research was the WAKE UP CALL.

We need all the help we can get. This thing is multi factorial. All kinds of specialists must work together and pictures like the one above make it obvious.
Nigel (NzeR) describes the situation way better, since my English are not as good as his.

Apart from doctors, we must have an open mind too. The latest developments in the field show that some of us have serious issues that can be found. As long as WE SEARCH.
Last edited by costumenastional on Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby costumenastional » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:59 am

NZer1 wrote:Thanks for you feedback.
The more you have made me think about this the more I am able to understand my reasoning. The co-incidences that are emerging from the work of Dr. Flanagan and his speciality are in my view important in some way. The cross over between MS symptoms and the symptoms associated with clavicle/thoracic alignment and other connections that Dr. Flanagan has offered is in my view important to the whole understanding of MS.
There is too much coincidence with lesions on the spinal cord and spinal alignment not to look into this more. Yes it could be said that the two processes have the same outcome and it is also caused by two differing actions. One is permanent and the other not. The key thing I think is that there are times when the two co-exist, and there will be times when a PwMS's posture will compound their symptoms because of a different cause, but at the same sight.
If a PwMS has a lesion on the cord at C2 for instance and their posture is effected by the 'MS hug' there could be alignment putting pressure on the lesion and exacerbating the lesion because of alignment.
The CSF pump effect is something that I had experience with prior to my dx of MS and it was because of an injury at the same time. I had a specialist helping me with Rotator cuff tears and neck alignment at the same time as my MS symptoms became distinguishable. She had trained in Cranio Sacral therapy and told me there was a restriction in the flow in my clavicle/thoracic region. At the time this did not mean anything to me or the Muscular/Skeletal Specialist. Reading Dr. Flanagans work has linked the research I did at the time in a way I could hypothesize there could be a connection to lesions and CSF flow restrictions.
Because I have C2 lesion 20mm and C5/C6 disc bulge and disc degeneration plus other compression issues it is hard not to speculate. And I know that others will not have these issues though the CSF flow and cord lesions may be a connection to progression only, as we loose posture because of our disease.
Looking forward to hearing your updates.
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Postby shye » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:44 am

Interesting post Nigel
In 2001 I saw a cranio-sacral worker, and she picked up a restriction in my left neck (she picked it up when she was working on my right foot area!)--I had severe injury to head and neck in "83, and MRI still picks up the large lesion (they use another name--can't recall it offhand) at C5-C6 area.
This cranio-sacral worker was just pinch-hitting for my osteopath who had injured her arm, so I only had a few sessions with her. But looking back, I wish I had switched to her, she clearly knew her stuff--my osteo never commented on the injury, and was not greatly helpful.
As I wrote above, on 10/12 I have an appt with a new osteopath, who does the cranial work--she comes highly recommended--will post re: her view, and what she does re: any help.
It appears there are indeed many modalities of help for us, each of us with our individual problems that move us into the MS scenario.
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upper cervical spine chiropractic adjustments

Postby Drury » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:00 pm

Hello Costume,

I have just returned from a trip and find your topic very interesting.

My daughter who has MS was also in an accident in 05. She was hit by a speeding cab and thrown onto the windshield suffering major brain trauma, disc herniation, arm and knee injury etc. and was diagnosed with MS a year later. I am convinced that her trauma and a bad case of chicken pox at the age of 23 are what caused her MS.

She has numerous lesions in brain and spine and has been seeing an Atlas Orthogonist for a couple of years now to relieve her neck pain.

She had an MRV in Albany in August and was told there are no blockages.
We are waiting for further testing. She is also on Tysabri.

I have followed your CCSVI treatment and truly hope Dr. Flanagan and Dr. Koontz will be able to help you.

Thank you for all the info you have given us.

Drury
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ccsvi

Postby blossom » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:32 pm

costume, i was gonna pm you about this but thought maybe this might by chance help you or anyone reading this as a thing to ask chiro.'s or maybe in some cases a good neurosurgeon "fat chance" been there done that. but since this is worldwide and here and there some very good dr.'s are coming into play here. like you said this is not a one stop thing we are dealing with.

early on they told me i had rsd from the fall. then later ms. but i really did not fit either. then my sister told me about a woman that was told she had ms for 7 yrs. but after a neck surgery all her symptoms went away.

so i called her. our symptoms were more alike than anyone i had talked to. now keep in mind she had had numerous mri's and several spinal taps through the yrs.

after having ms for 7 yrs. she was involved in a car accident that messed up her neck. she needed to have surgery. when the surgeon came into talk to her after the surgery which went well he told her that while they were in the neck he removed something that might help her with some of her neck issues. "HE REMOVED A BONE SPUR" her symptoms totally went away. no more cold purple feet, no more heat intolerence, no heavy legs
and arms and hands bladder issues all went "AWAY".

so i made an appt. with the same neuro. surgeon. my mri's show bone spurs. i even took him xrays that showed spurs. i wanted him to remove mine. he would not do it. he said he didn't think that the spurs would be causeing me problems. he said that there was no justification for him to do the surgery. i reminded him of the woman that had told me about him. that she was told ms for 7 yrs. now her symptoms are gone. he said well she needed surgery because of the car accident and that this was probably a fluke and it helped her. told him look you can tell there's something going on in my neck when i look up i can move better my blood flows better etc. . WHY!! told him what if the fall caused this spur to put pressure on a nerve. i begged, said i'd sign waivers, i bawled. nope, wouldn't do it. tried with other neuro. surgeons with the same response.

i kept in touch with the lady for at least 4 or 5 yrs and she was fine no ms symptoms. this was a lady from my hometown it was no bull s--t

now, who knows? if i could have gotten the spurs removed would it have helped? don't know. i'd give it a shot if i could find a good neuro.surgeon willing to do it. believe me, i'm not anxious to get cut on. i hope i can find the right chiro. and it helps me. but that's not so easy either. been trying for yrs. now i have some new ammunition.

i'm only putting this "true story" out here because it could maybe help someone and get some attention to this possibility too. i couldn't find a dr. to take them off and hopefully that isn't what could keep a chiro. from complete success.

don't know. just throwing this into this pot with ccsvi, ctos, chiro.'s etc. that is makeing more sence than any of the things presented to me by neuro.'s or anyone else.

i can still hear the first neuro. i went to telling me that trauma had nothing to do with ms. and everyone of them after that. i'm sure i could not have been the only one voicing this opinion to them. even though they have no other for sure reason you get it or no for sure treatments.
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Postby whyRwehere » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:44 am

Blossom,
I wonder if you can go back t o that same neurosurgeon with the ccsvi info and try begging again. Nothing to lose, anyhow.
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Postby costumenastional » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:48 am

Drury wrote:I am convinced that her trauma and a bad case of chicken pox at the age of 23 are what caused her MS.


Drury wrote:She had an MRV in Albany in August and was told there are no blockages.


All i can say is thank you for your valuable feedback friend. This is exactly the reason i started this topic. Awareness.

Blossom, in my opinion, you did very well sharing this story in public. Even if you pmed it to me i d tell you to re post it here.We all know that there is no rational person in the world that would lie about his/her MS symptoms going away so i totally believe that this is true.

You said it (kind of) but i d like to highlight it: neck surgery is very dangerous and i can't blame the surgeon for not going with this in your case. Of course i can't blame you for being wiling to take the risk either.

Thank you all for your feedback and given the opportunity i d like to add something.

Upon my diagnosis and while i was still hospitalized, a woman brought her husband to receive his monthly Tysabri infusion. He was a mess. She told me that he had MS for 8 years and he was diagnosed only a few months after a serious car accident.

They know. They know that MS can be caused by trauma. And what trauma does if not destroying brain blood vessels and the spinal cord? I cant thing of anything else actually...The relation is known for years.
They know that surgery may help. But when the patient is in a really bad state they decide that it doesn't worth the trouble. As they know that MS drugs won't do anything but slow down the disease's destructive process. And maybe they are right in some cases. I wouldn't know. I can only accept that not everything can be corrected by surgery and while some people die on the spot others must live with the consequences of their accident.

The problem is with people that may have a chance. People that were born with defective veins or have a subluxation or two in their spinal cord. What if these people can get better with a simple angioplasty or chiropractic adjustments or both?
What if I get better with chiropractic adjustments? I got better with angio! And Flanagan provides a reasonable explanation of why this may have happened in his blog. What if I manage to get even better now that i know what triggered my disease? Which one of the tens of neuros who wanted me on drugs should i blame?
No one. I was lucky enough to find my real problem. And now i can only hope that this problem can be fixed. I don't give a shit about them. But i do give a shit about sharing and call for others to share their experiences.

The "you have ms, start injecting and see you next year" line of treatment doesn't sound like what we would call patient oriented medical care. It belongs to the past.

edit: bone spurs. Blossom, what is this? Fractures? Gongrats for keep on fighting.
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Postby blossom » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:26 am

whyrwehere, that neuro is probably dead by now as that was at least 16 yrs. ago. i have brought this up to others but to deaf ears.

i have brought it up to chiro.'s too. i just thought that if anyone finds out they have spurs in the neck they might want to consider this. i know the surgery is dangerous. i don't even know for sure what my neck problem is i just know i have one and it started with trauma. just hope the next thing i try finally helps as i am running out of age and getting pretty bad.
as many others.

but, for this to never been researched is just unforgiveable by main stream medicine. and to shun anything that could help just because some hot shot fda or whoever doesn't "feel" it should be.

ccsvi is bringing a lot out and to the surface and if neuro.'s chiro.'s and vasc. dr.'s would all work together just think what might happen.

there might be some nutrional things help bone spurs too. i'll take any info. gotta try anything that might help.

thanks again costume, you are really on the ball. hopefully this will help us get the ball rolling even more. wishing you the best.
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Postby NZer1 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:40 am

A new post from M. Flanagan;

The Mystery of MS Lesions
uprightdoctor | September 30, 2010 at 8:45 am | Categories: Uncategorized | URL: http://wp.me/p11lYi-wq



MS scars
The root of the word sclerosis means scar and multiple sclerosis is associated with multiple scars in the brain. Scars being what they are, it is unlikely that either the best upper cervical chiropractic care or surgical liberation procedure will lead to repair of badly damaged scarred tissues.

If you read the comments section you will see that many people with MS lesions recall severe trauma from many years earlier. Only in rare cases do the serious symptoms show up immediately or soon after trauma so no one would even think of looking for lesions in the first year or so after the accident. By the time brain scans are done the scars may be many years old. On the other hand, I had the experiece of treating cases where the signs, symptoms and lesions all started to show up in just about a year. Two of those cases where especially severe and resulted in significant disabilities. In any case, most lesions in MS are permanent scars.

Unfortunately, oftentimes the scars are in bad locations as far as signs and symptoms are concerned. For example, the cervical cord contains all of the long myelinated tracts that pass from higher centers in the brain down to the arms and legs to work the muscles. Damage to these long tracts can cause permanent muscle weakness. The goal in these cases should be to restore function and halt further progression and disability as much as possible.


The lesions or scars of mutliple sclerosis show up as bright spots

called hyperintensity signals on MRI as seen in the brain scan on the right. Hyperintensity signals however are not unique to MS. Strokes and migraine headaches can also cause hyperintensity signals on brain scans in the area of impaired arterial blood flow. MS hyperintesity signals, however, are more characteristically located above the covering over the posterior fossa, which contains the cerebellum as seen in the sketch below. Hence, the covering is called the tentorium cerebelli. Additionally, the hyperintesity signals are often found surrounding the chambers of the brain called ventricles in the periventricualr areas around the core of the brain. The ventricles are the dark shadows in the brain scan above and chambers in the middle of the brain and brainstem seen in the sketch below.


The lesions are also found around the larger dural sinuses of the brain and get progressively smaller as you follow the blood vessels upstream counter-current to blood flow. This is just the opposite of what you would expect if viruses were the cause because viruses follow blood flow so they would tend to show up in areas closer to the source of the stream first, not so much further downstream.

Condsidering all the above it's hard to picture how stenosis in such distant jugular and thoracic veins could cause lesions in to show up predominantly in the higher and core areas of the brain above the tentorium, and not more in the cerebellum down in the basement of the cranial vault called the posterior fossa.

In addition to the brain, MS lesions are also sometimes found the cervical cord as depicted in the old sketch above. In contrast to the core of the brain, however, the lesions in the cord tend to show up on the outside along its flanks which contain the myelinated tracts mentioned above. Rarely ever does MS show up below the shoulders. While MS stops at the shoulders, however, other similar demyelinating diseases show up in the lower cord, such as amytrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), also known as Lou Gehrig's disease and primary lateral sclerosis (PLS). There is also a variant of MS, called Devic's disease, that is associated with optic neuritis and demyelination in the lower cord. In addition to MS, I also treated patients with demyelinating diseases of the cord. At this time there is nothing anyone can do to stop the devastation in these cases.

Interestingly, while Asians have a lower incidence of MS they do get demyelinating diseases of the cord such as Devic's disease. I believe it has to do with design difference between Caucasian and Asian skull designs. I will be covering demyelinating diseases of the cord on my new website, which is not quite ready for public viewing yet. Suffice it to say that demyelinating diseases of the cord are probably due to similar design problems and circulatory causes as MS.

As far as the cause and location of the lesions of MS are concerned, Schelling's theory makes the most sense. I will be discussing Schelling's theory as to why the lesions show up where they do in my next post. I will also throw some of my own two cents to add to the mix and maybe fill in some of the gaps.

While curing the scars may be difficult or impossible the location of the scars are often in areas that have nothing to do with many of the unusual signs and symptoms associated with MS, such as optic neuritis, trigeminal neuralgia, speech problems, balance problems fatigue etc. Furthermore, lesions don't come and go so they can't aren't the cause of remissions and exacerbations.

Halting the progression of MS and improving signs and symptoms unrelated to the lesions is definitely possible by restoring fluid mechanics in the brain. Upper cervical correction is one way to do it. The liberation procedure is another. Things will get better as we learn more and continue to solve the mystery of MS.

There is something I must add to this. A set of MRI taken monthly, they are mid way down the page of this link;
http://healthworldnet.com/TheCuttingEdg ... re/?C=7561
I am unsure of what Dr. Flanagan means with his views on lesions when they are compared with these MRI's
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Postby NZer1 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:52 am

In addition to the post above I believe that some of the jigsaw pieces will involve deposits and flushing of the brain of byproducts. The iron deposition is something that they can image and I think that there is more to it than that. There will be more insights from pathology and that may have more conclusive answers if the work on vascularture and deposition can be studied from evidence base rather than hypothesis.
Taken from Cheer's thread on Dr. Baskshi on TiMS.
Iron in Chronic Brain Disorders: Imaging and Neurotherapeutic Implications (... Rohit Bakshi)

http://www.neurotherapeutics.org/article/S1933-7213(07)00090-6/abstract
Quote:
...However, the link between observed iron deposition and pathological processes underlying various diseases of the brain is not well understood.


http://www.mssociety.org.uk/application ... 7&id=14320
Quote:
From the Italian press---Professor Rohit Bakshi of Harvard University came to Ferrara University to discuss how his decade long study of iron deposition in MS brains has now intertwined with Dr. Zamboni's research:
...
its conclusions have been come to intertwine with the results of tests carried out by the researcher and neurologist Bologna Ferrara Fabrizio Salvi on Ccsvi, which have established a hypothetical link between stenosis of the venous vessels in the brain iron accumulation and the onset of multiple sclerosis.
...
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