Upper cervical spine chiropractic adjustments

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby shye » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:49 pm

Blossom,
check your PM
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Postby Drury » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:13 pm

Blossom,

Wow that was quite a story! Thank you for sharing it with us.

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Postby ALE » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:57 pm

Ironically, I started pursuing this same avenue probably around the same time as costumenastional: I was working on a project for a chiropractor who specializes in manipulating the atlas bone and got to thinking it's probably in the same area as those compromised veins in CCSVI. Although this chiro's never worked with MS patients specifically, he explained almost all nerves pass through the atlas bone, so if it's misaligned, it could very well be putting pressure on the nerves and causing symptoms; by keeping the bone aligned for as long as possible, theroretically there'd be no more pressure on the nerves and they'd be allowed to heal. A quick google of "MS and Chiropractic" turned up the same websites costumenastional sited.

So just last week I had my first two alignments and at my third appointment this week everything still looked good so no adjustment was needed. It wasn't quite as painless for me - this doc uses a chair where the headrest drops and makes a very loud clang as it does - as my neck and back have been achy (hopefully just from finally being aligned again as he claims). But my x-rays originally showed the angle of my atlas off 3.5%; usually at .5% he'll recommend adjustment.

Needless to say, I'm very interested in any results anyone experiences from this type of treatment.
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Postby costumenastional » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:51 am

Ale, welcome friend. I really hope we get some relief. Just in case you didn't notice, Dr Flanagan has joined us and i think you will find his topic extremely interesting.

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-14005.html

If i may ask, are there any x-rays in digital form you could show to him?

Take care and please keep us updated.
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Postby ALE » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:14 am

Thank you costumenastional. Right now I don't have any x-rays or those heat/wavy line diagrams, although my doc may send some to me. I just went for my 4th appt. in two weeks and I was still aligned (even better than at my 3rd appt.) - meaning hopefully my nerves are starting the healing process!

I'll check out Dr. Flanagan's link too.

I'm looking forward to hearing if your getting any relief as well - I actually found your blog first, and after trying unsuccessfully to comment, stumbled upon this forum.
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Postby NZer1 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:54 pm

Thanks Dr. for your latest;
http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/2010 ... s-lesions/
Pressure and Shear Stress in MS Lesions
Posted on October 7, 2010 by uprightdoctor

Image by Reigh LeBlanc via Flickr

According to Schelling one of the likely causes of MS lesions is venous back jets into the brain. He proposes that one of possible sources arise from normal cardiorespiratory waves. The other is from trauma. In either case venous blood flows backwards and into the brain.

One route of back jet into the brain is through the jugular veins. Schelling proposes that certain people are born or acquire incompentant valves in the jugulars that fail to check the reverse flows. The other route is through the vertebral veins which have no valves to prevent reverse flows. In the picture above, the left the jugular veins are the large veins in the front of the neck. The vertebral veins are the smaller veins in the back of the neck. The large veins inside the skull are called dural sinuses.

Typically, most, not all veins have valves to check and prevent back flow. Technically speaking none of the dural sinuses have valves. The alignment of some of the cerebral veins however serves to prevent reverse flows to a limited degree, which I won’t go into here. So disregarding that piece of information, the large veins of the brain have no valves.

Following the veins backwards, upstream and counter current to normal flow, the jugular and vertebral veins next connect to the sigmoid sinus, the S shaped sinus directly above them. The trasverse sinus is the short flat sinus that runs from the sigmoid sinus to the back of the skull. Right at that little circle junction at the back of the skull is another sinuse that runs forty-five degrees upwards and to the left toward te front of the brain. It’s called the straight sinus. Going straight up, beyond the junction of the transverse and straight sinus is the largest sinus of the brain that runs up to the top of the brain. It’s calle the superior sagittal sinus.

Now if you follow the straight sinus inward you will see it connects to the Great Vein of Galen, the Basal Vein of Rosenthal and the internal cerebral veins. These veins all drain the core of the brain. More importantly, regarding this discussion they go to the periventricular areas of the brain.

Now if you click on the picture and enlarge it, you will see a large shadow in the middle of the brain. The shadow you see is the lateral ventricle. The ventricles of the brain produce water called cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) which cushions, protects and supports the brain. If you look down by the vertebral veins you will see another shadow. That shadow is the spinal cord. Among other things it contains the subarachnoid space surrounding the cord. The subarachnoid space is part of the protective covering of the brain and cord called meninges. The ventricles, subarachnoid space and CSF pathways likewise have no valves.

I would like to put aside cardiorespiratory waves, which I disagree with as a source of injury to the brain, and focus on trauma. In contrast to cardiorespiratory waves, trauma produces massive uncontrolled forces that most certainly can reflux into the brain under significant pressure. In this regard, the vertebral veins contain a large volume of unchecked blood. The lumbar cistern also contains a significant volume of CSF. Lastly, the valves of the jugular veins have physical limitations which may be easily overwhelmed by massive forces.

According to Schelling venous back jets and massive refluxes from trauma simply follow the course of the dural sinuses. It makes sense then that the lesions in MS tend to show up around the larges veins in the brain and get progressively smaller as you follow the veins upstream counter-current to flow. MS lesions also tend to show up in the periventricular areas, which, as mentioned above, drain into the straight sinus system.

In other words venous blood back jets into the brain stretch the largest veins of the brain that take the brunt of the force, causing them to balloon out and strain nearby surrounding myelinated nerves. Researchers studying normal pressure hydrocephalus surmized many years ago that stretching from something as simple as edema alone was enough to break myelin. So basically speaking, myelin, is simply no match for the massive forces generated by whiplash and other similar type traumas. Trauma can generate significant pressure in the veins of the entire body never mind the brain. What’s more, pressure assoicated with trauma often cause acute rapid rises in surrounding tissue pressures.

For example, normal inversion and Valsalva maneuvers create reverse flows into the brain. Hanging upside down or standing on your head causes inversion flows. A Valsalva maneuver is performed by blowing real hard against maximum resistance. Pilots and scuba divers use Valsalva maneuvers to control pressure in the brain and ears respectively. The famous horn player “Satchmo” Louis Armstrong performed Valsalva maneuvers when he played powerful long sustained high notes. His neck and facial veins would buldge and his eyes would nearly pop out. Technically he should have blown his cork if inversion flows were a problem. In addition, Olympic style competition weight lifters do Valsalva maneuvers when they lift heavy weights. In fact, Valsalva maneuvers help shore up, stabilize and strengthen the spine.

In this regard, decades ago I decided to study bats, whales and giraffes because of the extreme inversion flows they face during head inversion and deep dives. As I expected, they appear to have developed compensatory mechanisms. The giraffe in the picture above uses extra large spaces inside the skull called diploe which I discussed in previous posts. This extra large handsome looking draft also has a rather distguished bump over the nasal area. The diploe and extra spaces in special strategically located bumps serve as a drip pan when the giraffe lower its head. Humans developed compensatory mechanisms to contend with upright posture. Interesting the valveless veins of the skull and spine play similar roles. In other words, moderate inversion flows don’t appear to be the problem. On the other hand, acute venous back jets are an entirely different story.

Unfortunately, back jets don’t explain the lesions you find in the cord. Again, that’s where Schelling theory makes the most sense. I will discuss cord lesions in MS in my next post. In contrast to massive pressure from venous back jets that stretch nearby myelin in the brain, according to Schelling the myelin in the cord simply snaps due to shear forces acting on attachments inside the cord itself. Those shear forces are amplified by a Tsunami of venous and CSF waves flowing through the subarchnoid space of the cord.
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Postby NZer1 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:01 pm

Dr. since reading this piece this morning I realize that the work of Norman Doidge, MD fits with your work. I purchased and read the book The Brain That Changes Itself after I was recomended it by the Muscular Skeletal specialist who was helping me with my neck and rotator cuff tears, my MS symptoms developed during the time I was seeing him.
The severing of nerves and nerve conduction is discussed in this book. It helps to understand many issues in MS and with your piece this morning I have seen how RRMS could be explained.
So much of this jigsaw is beginning to fit together. :D
Thank you, Nigel
Edit for those who have been following Neuroplasticity, Norman Doidge's book is very good.
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:57 am

ALE wrote:this doc uses a chair where the headrest drops and makes a very loud clang as it does


Ale,
I'm familiar with quite a few Upper Cervical techniques but I've never heard of one that uses a chair with a drop headpiece. However there are many Upper Cervical techniques that make use of a table where you lay on your side and they have an elevated head piece that drops when the adjustment is made. Is it possible it was a table instead of a chair? If in fact it is a chair that he uses I would be interested in hearing more about this particular Upper Cervical Technique as I'm unfamiliar with it. Maybe you can ask your Chiropractor the name of the Upper Cervical technique he practices?

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Postby costumenastional » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:08 am

Hello Dear Dr Koontz!
Very nice to see you here also. Thank you...
Last edited by costumenastional on Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:16 am

@ Blossom - Do you still have those MRI's & X-Rays? I'd be interested in seeing them to see where the bone spurs are. The location of the bone spurs determine whether or not there is a possibility of them causing a problem with the nerves. A better question to ask is why is your body forming bone spurs? Have you had any recent X-Rays taken or an MRI done? and if you have, have they been compared to your old ones which showed the bone spurs?
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Postby ALE » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:47 pm

Yes, actually it is a very low table that I lay on my side while my doc positions his hands around my atlas before dropping the "headrest"; his website says he practices upper cervical chiropractic care, atlas protocol.

And actually, this morning when I woke up, I couldn't feel my hand!  Or rather, it feels almost normal - which it hasn't in years!  Typically when I'm sitting around I know I rub my hands trying to massage out the tightness and tingling in my fingers.  Being cautiously optimistic, last week I started to notice some changes to the tightness and tingling in both my hands. Normally this is constant to various annoying degrees in at least my third, fourth, and fifth fingers, sometimes spreading to my index fingers. But last week I thought it wasn't in my second fingers and the other day that it was pretty much gone in my third fingers as well.  And its only been two weeks (four visits with two adjustments).  I haven't noticed any other changes to any of my other symptoms, and some of the tingly came back throughout the day, but for now I'm anxious to see where this goes.
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:46 am

Ale,
That sounds more like it. I've never heard of a chair being used in Specific Upper Cervical Chiropractic Care. It sounds like your Chiropractor is using either the Toggle or Blair technique. Both are very good and get good results when applied properly. It's also a very good sign that you have begun to get relief from your symptoms.
Ale wrote:And actually, this morning when I woke up, I couldn't feel my hand! Or rather, it feels almost normal - which it hasn't in years!

Do you mean that you could feel your hand or is that your way of describing the fact that the pain and tingling began to leave your hand?

Might I also ask, what is the criteria he uses when deciding whether or not you need an adjustment?
Does he simply palpate your neck?
Does he check your leg length?
Does he use a hand held instrument that takes heat readings from the back of your neck?
A combination of the above?

The hand held scanner may look something similar to one of these:

Image

Image

I look forward to hearing more about your progress as time goes on.
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:24 am

For those of you interested, Upper Cervical Chiropractor Dr. Brandon Harshe of TheAtlasForLife.com blog made some posts recently about the different types of Upper Cervical adjustments with videos so you can get an idea of what the different techniques look like.

Part 1:
http://theatlasoflife.com/2010/10/01/what-does-a-specific-upper-cervical-adjustment-look-like/

Part 2:
http://theatlasoflife.com/2010/10/02/what-does-a-specific-upper-cervical-adjustment-look-like-part-2-blair/

Part 3:
http://theatlasoflife.com/2010/10/03/what-does-a-specific-upper-cervical-adjustment-look-like-part-3-nucca-and-grostic/


In Part 1 it shows the Developer of Chiropractic, Dr. B.J. Palmer, performing a Knee Chest adjustment. Palmer, Kale & KCUCS are all forms of the Knee Chest Upper Cervical adjusting technique.
Here is a video of Dr. Kessinger of KCUCS performing an adjustment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jGoWPQNaow

I was unable to find videos of anyone demonstrating the Kale adjusting technique. Interestingly enough I did run across another Upper Cervical technique that I hadn't heard of before called Fujibuchi Upper Cervical Adjustment (FUCA) which appears to be a Japanese version of the Knee Chest technique very similar to the Kale technique only they seem to have designed their own adjusting table which differs slightly from that which is used in the other 3 Knee Chest adjusting techniques.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CblDEEMigNA&NR=1

My first impression of FUCA is that they are doing good valid Upper Cervical chiropractic. I will try to find out more about the technique and will post my findings here. However it may take some time since I'll have to use Google translate until I find someone who is more familiar with the technique.
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Neck Chiropratic treatment and RA

Postby Hooch » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:48 am

I have MS/CCSVI and was diagnosed with RA about 7 years ago. I used to visit a chiropractor about once a month. After getting the RA he wouldn't touch my neck and so I haven't been back. What would be your feelings on this if I am not having flareups. I am quite stable at present with my RA. I had the proceedure for CCSVI 3 weeks ago.
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Postby ALE » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:32 am

DrKoontzDC wrote:Ale,
Do you mean that you could feel your hand or is that your way of describing the fact that the pain and tingling began to leave your hand?

The second - sorry, I'm not very technical, and after a few years of constantly feeling tightness and tingling in my hands, to have it start to disappear actually seems like I can't feel my hand when in fact it does just feel normal. Some of the tingling has came back this morning, but I know it takes a long time for nerves to heal, so the fact that I did start to get some relief was encouraging.


DrKoontzDC wrote:Might I also ask, what is the criteria he uses when deciding whether or not you need an adjustment?
Does he simply palpate your neck?
Does he check your leg length?
Does he use a hand held instrument that takes heat readings from the back of your neck?
A combination of the above?

I believe a combination of all the above. After arriving at his office, I'll relax for 10 minutes, then he'll use the scanner on my neck and spine - a roller type device that translates into wavy lines on his computer; the less wavy and more centered my readings are, the less likely I 'll need an adjustment. I believe he also takes my temp when he puts something right behind my ears at this time. Then I'll lie down and he'll check my leg length. If I need an adjustment, he'll perform it now, then I'll wait another ten minutes before he rechecks everything (scanner, temp, leg length). Last time when I didn't need an adjustment, he did double check with the scanner and then felt around my neck with his hands.

BTW, thanks for your posts about the different upper cervical techniques since this is all new to me.
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