Upper cervical spine chiropractic adjustments

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby DrKoontzDC » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:21 am

Hooch,
Chances are the chiropractor you were seeing before practiced a full spine technique. Even with him being a full spine chiropractor there is no reason why he shouldn't have adjusted your neck just because you were diagnosed with RA. I've adjusted patients with RA before using both a full spine technique as well as Upper Cervical. With that said, some full spine chiropractors use a cervical adjusting technique called a rotary break. It's a somewhat forceful rotational move done on the neck which, in my opinion is a careless and non-specific way to adjust someone's neck and could cause some tearing to the vertebral-basilar artery. This particular way of adjusting the cervical spine was taught many many years ago. To my knowledge it is no longer being taught in Chiropractic schools and if it is it shouldn't be however those full spine chiropractors that learned it may continue to use it. The proper and safest way of doing a cervical adjustment when using a full spine technique is to follow the plane line of the joint with only a few degrees of rotation instead of the old traditional rotary break move which involves considerably more rotation.

In my opinion you have nothing to worry about if you are concerned about going for Upper Cervical Care. When you visit an Upper Cervical Chiropractor they will do a thorough evaluation on you including going over your x-rays with you. Even though you are not currently having any flareups of your RA it is considered an Auto-Immune disorder and will most likely continue to get worse if nothing is done about it. Most people think that if they don't have any pain they are OK which can be very misleading. The best example I can use to relate this to is tooth decay and cavities. Everyone knows you don't just wake up one morning and have a toothache for no reason. It takes years for a cavity to form and by the time you have a toothache from tooth decay a lot of damage has already been done and drastic measures may have to be taken such as fillings or possibly even having a root canal. You get the picture. The point is, just because you aren't having any flareups doesn't mean the RA isn't silently wreaking havoc on your joints.

The good news is that I believe you could receive some benefit from not only your MS symptoms but for your RA as well. A current patient of mine needed to take a pill every day to manage the pain in his hands from RA. Now he no longer needs to take the pill. A lot of damage was done to his joints as a result of the RA, which in all likelihood is irreversible, but for him to be able to manage the pain without the use of medication is a big thing for him.

If you are interested in finding an Upper Cervical Chiropractor close to you please message either myself or Dr. Flanagan and we'll do our best to point you in the right direction.
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:30 am

ALE wrote:BTW, thanks for your posts about the different upper cervical techniques since this is all new to me.


Your very welcome. That is why I joined this site, to help educate people about the benefits of Upper Cervical Chiropractic Care.
From what you told me about your Chiropractors methods he is using the standard Upper Cervical protocol for patients when using Thermography much like myself. It sounds like you're in good hands. I look forward to hearing more about your progress.
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Postby costumenastional » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:25 am

DrKoontzDC wrote:A current patient of mine needed to take a pill every day to manage the pain in his hands from RA. Now he no longer needs to take the pill.


Dear Dr Koontz, how is this possible? Any ideas? What this person's x rays showed? Were there serious cervical spine problems?

By the way, my case is very obvious but would you say that this is the case for most of your patients? I suspect that after seeing my x ray, many people in here would think that in order to pursue chiropractic adjustments they must have a similar problem. Is this correct?
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Postby shye » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:26 pm

I had my first appt with a new osteopath this week.
She is extraordinary! took a great history, and then did about 40 minutes of cranial/body work.
I had made the appt in order to deal with rotated Atlas, which a chiro had greatly helped about 6 months ago, but which was rotating again.
Well, this osteo said she found the atlas just slightly rotated, but that this was not the real problem--she said my cervical area extremely compressed (which she picked up with her exam, but was confirmed for her also when I told her my head felt way to heavy for my neck to bear). The compression due to all the head trauma I have had over the years.

After the 40 minutes of her , felling much better--head lighter, some of the intense pain on one side greatly diminished-- and know on the way to some real healing from her. It is very gently work, and could actually feel some relief in some areas immediately.
Seeing a good osteopath might be the way to proceed for some of us.
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Postby NZer1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:43 pm

I have been wondering if there is any cross over with specialists such as Osteopaths. Here in NZ there is all sorts of resistance to what was once thought alternative medicine such as acupuncture which now is widely used. Is there any other 'specialty ' that does the same work as yourselves? Particularly meaning with the same knowledge and techniques.
Thanks again,
Nigel
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Postby shye » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:20 pm

NZer1
If your questiion refers to any others doing the work osteopaths do, there are also people who are not the dr that osteopaths are, that just get certified to do the Cranial-sacral work itself (therefore, they cannot prescribe meds, etc). If well trained, they are just as good. But not covered by insurance here in the States if the cranial work is not from an osteopath.
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Postby NZer1 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Thanks shye, I was meaning if there was an equivalent to a Chiropractor who is as skilled and knowledgeable as the two we have here. I take it that there are various 'accepted' trained people and the label/title can be better accepted by some in the medical world and insurance realm.
Probably not making sense here.
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:41 am

NZer1 wrote:I have been wondering if there is any cross over with specialists such as Osteopaths. Here in NZ there is all sorts of resistance to what was once thought alternative medicine such as acupuncture which now is widely used. Is there any other 'specialty ' that does the same work as yourselves? Particularly meaning with the same knowledge and techniques.
Thanks again,
Nigel


NZer1 wrote:Thanks shye, I was meaning if there was an equivalent to a Chiropractor who is as skilled and knowledgeable as the two we have here. I take it that there are various 'accepted' trained people and the label/title can be better accepted by some in the medical world and insurance realm.
Probably not making sense here.


Nigel,

Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. I'm moving in to a new office which has kept me very busy as of late. To answer your question, there really isn't any crossover as no other profession does what Upper Cervical Chiropractors do. While some people may think that Chiropractors and Osteopaths do similar jobs we are very different. Chiropractors stand firm on the fact that a properly aligned spine is essential to having a healthy functioning nervous system and that it plays an important role in creating a healthy body and mind. Upper Cervical Chiropractors place an emphasis on the Atlas and Axis due to their location and the direct impact they can have on the brainstem if they are subluxated (misaligned)

Besides pressure being put on the nerves due to an improperly aligned spine it also changes the fluid dynamics surrounding the spinal cord and the brain commonly referred to, in chiropractic, as the CSF Pump or Cranial-Sacral Pump. The idea behind adjusting the Atlas or Axis is to realign the spine so as to remove pressure from the nerves which allows them to heal as well as helping to restore the proper function and flow of the CSF Pump. As the healing begins, proper nerve transmission is restored allowing better communication from the brain to and from the rest of the body.

Most Osteopaths, and for that matter most Medical Doctors, don't generally share the same idea as Chiropractors in regards to how the body, as a whole, communicates within itself. They don't really consider the fact that pressure placed on nerves can interfere with the information being sent and received along those nerves. They do, but only so far as numbness, tingling & pain is concerned (which is some of the most basic sensory information) but not so much for over all body internal communication.
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Postby ClaireParry » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:01 am

Hi Dr Koontz,

I have a question if you don't mind.

I now have SPMS and real balance issues, using a stick to walk and some days should probably use a chair.

I had a riding accident about 17 yrs ago (I was 20) and crushed the vertebrae in my lower spine (lumbar region). I was numb for a day but thankfully recovered. I showed the first symptoms of MS at 24 yrs old.

Do you think the accident could have something to do with starting my MS? I spoke to a Chiropractor who seems to think it may have. What do you think? And could a chiropractor help here?

Thanks

Claire
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Postby DrKoontzDC » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:27 am

Dear ClaireParry,

A riding accident bad enough to crush your lumbar vertebrae causing numbness definitely has the ability to cause other problems in your spine. If you would, could you please describe the riding accident and how exactly you fell?
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Postby ClaireParry » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:38 am

Hi,

Thanks for the quick reply!!

I was at a show jumping competition and while going over a jump and stood up in my stirrups my stirrup leather snapped.

My horse kept going and I landed on the floor in a sitting position on my backside, sending this searing pain directly up my spine, I was so lucky it wasn't a whole lot worse.

Only stayed in hospital a week but had a lot of physio to get me up and going again.

Thanks

Claire
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Postby dania » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:13 am

Dr. Koontz, I have MS, SPMS now. There are 2 symptoms I have that are very different than other MS patients. I have to look up at the ceiling, to have any strength. When I was still able to walk, I always kept my head tilted upwards to walk. If I looked down I was unable to move. Other MS patients when they look up lose their balance. I am the exact opposite, When I look down it is like the light switch has been turned off and I lose all my strength.
The other difference is I never suffer from fatigue.
Any thoughts?
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Postby NZer1 » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:00 pm

Thank you Dr K for your reply. I have the view that there is always a need to look at the whole picture rather than a snap shot at part of the whole. About 15 years ago I regularly used a Chiro who did muscle testing and I clearly remember him having to adjust my atlas before he could get results from his muscle testing. If he used me as a conduit and laid my children on me to muscle test them he would have to work on my neck first, sometimes a free adjustment for me when I was there for my children.
What do you think of muscle testing, he used my arms extended as resistance to give pos and neg responses.
Apart from my question I am in favor of the understanding you mention where the spine is underrated in importance to general health.
Thanks Dr. Nigel
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Postby ALE » Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:13 am

Hi everyone,

Since I joined this forum hoping to hear results from people trying out upper cervical chiropractic care, I thought I'd share my experiences so far.

I started treatment twice a week on 9-27 and after the first two treatments I was able to hold the adjustment for a week and a half. During this time, I posted that my fingers and hands seemed to be getting less tight and tingly and there was one day that all these uncomfortable sensations almost completely disappeared from my right hand. Well, the next day, the sensations came back: I'm not sure if they were actually worse or just felt worse after having improved so much for a week, but the following day, when I saw my chiropractor, I needed an adjustment.

Since then, the sensations in my hands have not completely disappeared again and I haven't noticed any other improvements. My doctor was surprised I had seen any relief so early into his treatment plan as nerves do take a long time to heal. But I was able to hold that adjustment for a week and if I don't need an adjustment when I see him again on Thursday, he's planning on dropping my visits down to just once rather than twice a week.

If anyone else is pursuing upper chiropractic care, I'd love to hear about your experiences.
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Postby HappyPoet » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:02 am

For those who don't know...

Upper cervical spine adjustments are also discussed in the thread CCSVI and CCVBP where questions are answered by Dr. Flanagan (uprightdoc) and Dr. Koontz (DrKoontzDC).

:)
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