"The Emperor's New Clothes"

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

"The Emperor's New Clothes"

Postby malden » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:10 am

Is "Liberation" similar to "The Emperor's New Clothes?

"The Emperor's New Clothes"

An Emperor who cares for nothing but his wardrobe hires two weavers who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position or stupid; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they dress him in mime and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects. A child in the crowd calls out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession.

Hans Christian Andersen, 1837.
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Postby Rokkit » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:14 am

No, but the parallels to the immune theory are striking. Thanks for pointing this out.
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re: quote

Postby Saskatoongal » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:36 am

Great quote..some similarities. I loved that it pointed out no matter what happens in treatment, whether some or all symptoms disappear, it is important to be proud of yourself. I will be, the decision to go with all this controversery was extremely difficult. Maybe I will take quote with me in December. :)
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Postby Nasti » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:28 am

I had no immediate improvements, wrote everywhere about it, now 3 months later I feel more energy, and that's it. For me, quite enough. But people need to hear the whole truth before they build there wall of expectations. However, what caused me 3 relapses before the procedure, and I am freed from now - is the fact that I did everything in my power available at the moment. Now I sleep just fine. :)
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dreams?

Postby 1eye » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:35 am

I'm just nervous because I did not (yet) get my dreams back. But there have been lots of other placebo effects which lead me to think I have done the right thing. No progression I can measure, but it's early days yet.
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'MS' is over - if you want it
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Re: re: quote

Postby malden » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:40 am

Saskatoongal wrote:Great quote..some similarities. I loved that it pointed out no matter what happens in treatment, whether some or all symptoms disappear, it is important to be proud of yourself. I will be, the decision to go with all this controversery was extremely difficult. Maybe I will take quote with me in December. :)

Will you still be proud of yourself if you:
...gave a large sum of money to the swindlers, in advance, that they should set to work without any loss of time..."
and they just ...
They set up two looms, and pretended to be very hard at work, but they did nothing whatever on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the most precious gold-cloth; all they got they did away with, and worked at the empty looms till late at night."

http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html
But dont take me wrong...I admire your decision and your choice... its yours and nobody is in your skin except you.

Best regards,

Mladen.
Last edited by malden on Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dreams?

Postby Cece » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:43 am

1eye wrote:I'm just nervous because I did not (yet) get my dreams back. But there have been lots of other placebo effects which lead me to think I have done the right thing. No progression I can measure, but it's early days yet.

I hope the days to come bring more of the good...and the nights, if we are talking literal dreams? There are also daydreams and hopes & dreams. I hope you never see another day of progression, I do not think that is too much to hope for.
Last edited by Cece on Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dreams?

Postby CureIous » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:22 pm

1eye wrote:I'm just nervous because I did not (yet) get my dreams back. But there have been lots of other placebo effects which lead me to think I have done the right thing. No progression I can measure, but it's early days yet.


I had some really really strange ones in the months following the procedure. I'm talking kaleidoscope vivid "every neuron firing on all cylinders feel like I'm awake and walking around the room" stuff. I'd swear it was an LSD trip, but never used LSD lol. Not so much any more, but there was definitely stuff going on up in the noggin in those months of adjustment, whatever it was. Perhaps freshly oxygenated brain cells getting used to working again???

Mark
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby David1949 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:21 am

Is there a correlation between not having dreams and MS? I dream frequently. Sometimes they're wierd dreams. Sometimes they're nice dreams. Sometimes I dream that I can run like the wind. But when I wake up I still have MS and I still can't run.
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Re: "The Emperor's New Clothes"

Postby fogdweller » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:50 am

Malden wrote:Is "Liberation" similar to "The Emperor's New Clothes?

"The Emperor's New Clothes"

An Emperor who cares for nothing but his wardrobe hires two weavers who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position or stupid; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they dress him in mime and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects. A child in the crowd calls out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession.

Hans Christian Andersen, 1837.


That is why we do studies. Patients with MS desparately want a cure, and are hopeful that CCSVI may prove fruitful. If you are implying that merely because CCSVI generates interest and hopefulness, and that is somehow wrong, I think that is sad. I moved and was trying out to a new neurologist, and asked if he heard of CCSVI. He said "no, but he knew what it was about. It was another crazy theory like some birdbrained Dr. in Florida had come up with that didn't pan out." He didn't even know what it was, and he was sure if it gave MS patients some hope, it had to be wrong.

The implication is that hopeless and despondent is somehow the natural and unavoidable proper state for MS patients. Of course we need to be skeptical and scientific in our investigtation of this new theory, but it makes sense and certainly deserves study. Remember, anctedotal evidence may not be conclusive, but it is, after all, evidence.
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Postby David1949 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:51 pm

fogdweller, there is no fog there today. You stated that concisely and eloquently. Bravo!
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Postby Cece » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:36 pm

fogdweller's name comes from the locale where he lives, not the quality of his cognition, which is as always excellent!
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Re: "The Emperor's New Clothes"

Postby malden » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:25 pm

fogdweller wrote:... Of course we need to be skeptical and scientific in our investigtation of this new theory, but it makes sense and certainly deserves study....


It makes no sense to me, at all.

M.
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Postby BooBear » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:25 am

I guess I don't know why the autoimmune theory does make sense to some.

a. MS does not meet all of the criteria to be defined as autoimmune.
b. The antigen to cause the autoimmune response has never been identified.
c. Immunosuppressants do not halt, and arguably do not alter, the course of the disease. One would think that it would.

But, again, I can only speak from my experience. I have taken a variety of drugs for my symptoms- none, and I mean NONE, made me feel the way that I do today. None.

If that means I am walking down the street naked in front of throngs of people (ala the Emperor), well, at least I am WALKING DOWN THE STREET. Balanced. Strong.

Not to mention looking damn fine as well. :)
Three veins angioplastied.  One renewed life.  
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Postby Cece » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:32 pm

BooBear wrote:If that means I am walking down the street naked in front of throngs of people (ala the Emperor), well, at least I am WALKING DOWN THE STREET. Balanced. Strong.

Well said!!!
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