“Zamboni’s theory seems sound to me”

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby sbr487 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:38 am

If CIH "experts group" can get the role of IJV and verterbal veins inversed, how bad a misquote can be :)
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
- Max Planck
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Postby patientx » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:50 am

drsclafani wrote:
patientx wrote:
Dr. Sclafani: "I was the only American interventional radiologist who performed this treatment until 2010."

:?:



MISQUOTE

I was the only american IR who performed this procedure on the east coast until 2010

dr dake was the first to perform this procedure in us

\sorry mike.


Gotcha. No apology necessary. Just wondering if I missed something.
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Postby NZer1 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:25 am

Thanks Cece, love it :lol:
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Postby malden » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:20 pm

BooBear wrote:Let's try something new. Back your statements with some facts and counterpoints for us to consider if you wish to be influential....


Ok... I alredy elaborated a lot of hemodynamic nonsens and misleadings you can hear from our "esteemed professionals" but for you, let elaborate this one:
"the brain was like a barrel with a hose going into it and hose coming out and that if you block the hose coming out, you slow down what can come in as well"

Wrong premisis leed to wrong conclusions. Hose(es) going to the brain (two arteries) are attached to the pump (hart) and are hard and stiff, on the other brain side are veins, expandable and numerous. If you block all veins (that's case in stranglering) your face, eyes, tonque, swallow and turn blue and in a short time you are death. But thats not the CCSVI case. CCSVI MS case is that one or two or three veins has narrowings. So what? Hart is still keep pumping, arteries deliver blood to the brain, there is no deficite of oxigen or food for brain cels.... blood flow in veins is redistributing, colaterals are here to help, its all normal. Dont forget that veins are elastic! They can acumulate and compensate extra presure.

M.
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Postby NZer1 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:44 pm

Malden your comment is valid only at the extreme of no out flow, all the other possibilities are the ones of interest in CCSVI. It is impossible to speculate what can happen in any one area or multiple areas when there is flow restriction through one of the many bypass options and for that matter the effect longitudinally which may be synagenic and be impossible to connect cause to effect. There is more than one flow passage available at all times.
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Postby Cece » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:38 pm

It's known that there is cerebral hypoperfusion in MS. So we know slow flow is happening. Malden, with your excellent English these days, do you have an explanation for the slow flow?
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Postby sbr487 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:09 pm

Malden wrote:If you block all veins (that's case in stranglering) your face, eyes, tonque, swallow and turn blue and in a short time you are death.


Why I am reminded of Colin Rose?

What next?

Recovery due to liberation - instantaneous remission/hepatitis/faith healing :D
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
- Max Planck
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Postby malden » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:46 pm

Cece wrote:It's known that there is cerebral hypoperfusion in MS. So we know slow flow is happening. M, with your excellent English these days, do you have an explanation for the slow flow?


Slow flow in cerebral hypoperfusion is caused only by problems in hart or arteries or arterioles. Big neck veins are not included at all.

Sorry, but I am not englishman (in New York). But you are right, my english is significantly improving in this cloudy, rainy days ;)
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Postby 1eye » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:43 pm

BooBear wrote:I made a similar analogy, Malden, that all of us should be able to relate to.

You can identify lesions with a MRI. But unless you use gladonium, you will not be able to identify active lesions at all. So if you have a MRI without the enhancement of gladonium, does it mean that you have no active lesions? No. It means you did not use the proper protocol to identify any active lesions that may exist.

I am growing increasingly frustrated with remarks that liken esteemed professionals in their field with charlatans. These doctors are going out on a limb, jeopardizing their reputations and status (often with rather prestigious universities) to do what they believe to be right. For this we liken them to swindlers and manipulators?

It is not the results of this theory that scare some people- it is the possibility that this theory provides. The possibility that decades spent on an autoimmune theory were wrong. The possibility that expensive medications and treatments were meaningless. The possibility that a compliant, chronically ill community could rise up and become free from the burdens associated with this disease. And, frankly, the possibility that one may have cheated themselves from the benefits of this treatment by subscribing to the fear and propaganda.

Possibility is perhaps the most polarizing thing in our lives. Those that are scared to explore possibility shun it, but they like company; as such, they try to find those who are also scared to join them. Those that view possibility as hope find it worthy to explore, research and validate. Fortunately, there is plenty of company for those individuals to enjoy within this community.


Capital words. Agreed. In these quantum mechanistic times, possibility is sometimes the only game in town. I have not finished exploring the possibilities. "Miles to go before I sleep."
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Postby Cece » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:54 pm

I have worked previously on many topics that were controversial in my 40-year career: the treatment of bleeding internal organs after trauma by interventional radiology; the dilation of dialysis access fistulas and grafts and the non-operative treatment of uterine fibroids by interventional embolization. All three faced strong opposition by those who were personally committed to other lines of treatment. Sometimes resistance is strong, sometimes not. But the resistance must be persistently met with data. Eventually, the truth comes forward, and in these three cases lives were saved, and better, less invasive alternatives arose from the controversy. Other controversial areas did not meet with success and were abandoned, not because of opposition, but because the data showed that they did not work better than the established alternative. Such is medical progress. Two steps forward, and sometimes one step back.

I like this quote too. I think sometimes it feels like this has never happened before, for something so radical to come along and be met with resistance and yet from our point of view seem to be in the right.
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Postby malden » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:41 am

Cece wrote:...I think sometimes it feels like this has never happened before, for something so radical to come along and be met with resistance and yet from our point of view seem to be in the right.


Radical here means extreme. Radical views are either extremely liberal or extremely conservative-- or just extremely abnormal.

I can quote some more original "radical" views on cardiovascular physiology from "DrSclafani answers some questions" topic, page two:

drsclafani wrote:Consider the brain to be like a barrel with two openings.
take two hose and place them in the openingsl
push water into one hose and let it drain through the other hose
by regulating input and output you can get a steady state to keep the fluid in the barrel to the same level

now block the drainage.
eiither less water can go into the barrel or the barrel will explode.

in the body, if you reduce the amount of blood getting out of the skull, then the amount of blood that gets into the brain must be reduced.

Reducing the blood flow into the brain is a bad thing most of the times. Flow in the carotid and vertebral arteries is essential for brain life.


why? Because oxygen and nutrients get to the brain via the carotid arteries so reducing inflow to the brain leads to inadequate oxygen to the brain. that can lead to cell death or dysfunction.


....and on the same page something in contradiction:

You are on a highway. the road ahead is blocked by an accident. So you get off and take a service road around the accident. You are not the only one so the traffic on the service road grows.

then the accident is cleared and the road is clear sailing again.

the service road goes back to little traffic.

unless you permanently barricade the service road, it will again be used to bypass delays.

same with the veins. they will shrink but they generally will not evaporate

have a nice trip!


So traffic continues... no reflux by driving in oposite direction on highway?

:?: :roll:
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Postby sbr487 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:31 am

Malden wrote:
Cece wrote:...I think sometimes it feels like this has never happened before, for something so radical to come along and be met with resistance and yet from our point of view seem to be in the right.


Radical here means extreme. Radical views are either extremely liberal or extremely conservative-- or just extremely abnormal.

I can quote some more original "radical" views on cardiovascular physiology from "DrSclafani answers some questions" topic, page two:

drsclafani wrote:Consider the brain to be like a barrel with two openings.
take two hose and place them in the openingsl
push water into one hose and let it drain through the other hose
by regulating input and output you can get a steady state to keep the fluid in the barrel to the same level

now block the drainage.
eiither less water can go into the barrel or the barrel will explode.

in the body, if you reduce the amount of blood getting out of the skull, then the amount of blood that gets into the brain must be reduced.

Reducing the blood flow into the brain is a bad thing most of the times. Flow in the carotid and vertebral arteries is essential for brain life.


why? Because oxygen and nutrients get to the brain via the carotid arteries so reducing inflow to the brain leads to inadequate oxygen to the brain. that can lead to cell death or dysfunction.


....and on the same page something in contradiction:

You are on a highway. the road ahead is blocked by an accident. So you get off and take a service road around the accident. You are not the only one so the traffic on the service road grows.

then the accident is cleared and the road is clear sailing again.

the service road goes back to little traffic.

unless you permanently barricade the service road, it will again be used to bypass delays.

same with the veins. they will shrink but they generally will not evaporate

have a nice trip!


So traffic continues... no reflux by driving in oposite direction on highway?

:?: :roll:


Pretty cheap strategy of taking things out of context or partial quote ...

It would be better if declare who you really are. That would make things easy to discuss. Or you are afraid of your reputation?
Or those silly arguments (remember faith healing, instantaneous remission, hepatitis?)
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
- Max Planck
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Postby scorpion » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:35 am

sbr487 wrote:
Malden wrote:
Cece wrote:...I think sometimes it feels like this has never happened before, for something so radical to come along and be met with resistance and yet from our point of view seem to be in the right.


Radical here means extreme. Radical views are either extremely liberal or extremely conservative-- or just extremely abnormal.

I can quote some more original "radical" views on cardiovascular physiology from "DrSclafani answers some questions" topic, page two:

drsclafani wrote:Consider the brain to be like a barrel with two openings.
take two hose and place them in the openingsl
push water into one hose and let it drain through the other hose
by regulating input and output you can get a steady state to keep the fluid in the barrel to the same level

now block the drainage.
eiither less water can go into the barrel or the barrel will explode.

in the body, if you reduce the amount of blood getting out of the skull, then the amount of blood that gets into the brain must be reduced.

Reducing the blood flow into the brain is a bad thing most of the times. Flow in the carotid and vertebral arteries is essential for brain life.


why? Because oxygen and nutrients get to the brain via the carotid arteries so reducing inflow to the brain leads to inadequate oxygen to the brain. that can lead to cell death or dysfunction.


....and on the same page something in contradiction:

You are on a highway. the road ahead is blocked by an accident. So you get off and take a service road around the accident. You are not the only one so the traffic on the service road grows.

then the accident is cleared and the road is clear sailing again.

the service road goes back to little traffic.

unless you permanently barricade the service road, it will again be used to bypass delays.

same with the veins. they will shrink but they generally will not evaporate

have a nice trip!


So traffic continues... no reflux by driving in oposite direction on highway?

:?: :roll:


Pretty cheap strategy of taking things out of context or partial quote ...

It would be better if declare who you really are. That would make things easy to discuss. Or you are afraid of your reputation?
Or those silly arguments (remember faith healing, instantaneous remission, hepatitis?)


I think Malden is actually you but from another dimension where he is known as rbs784. :)
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Postby Lyon » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:58 am

sbr487 wrote: Pretty cheap strategy of taking things out of context or partial quote ...

It would be better if declare who you really are. That would make things easy to discuss. Or you are afraid of your reputation?
Or those silly arguments (remember faith healing, instantaneous remission, hepatitis?)
This again?
Maybe we should all take it to Facebook where everyone is really who they say they are Image

So in visiting India we will see sbr487 on your mailbox?
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Postby patientx » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:24 am

Cece wrote:It's known that there is cerebral hypoperfusion in MS. So we know slow flow is happening. Malden, with your excellent English these days, do you have an explanation for the slow flow?

And in the time immediately before and after new lesion formation, there is actually increased cerebral perfusion:

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/127/1/111.full

But to answer your question:

http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/75/9/1288.abstract
Low GM perfusion could reflect decreased metabolism secondary to neuronal and axonal loss or dysfunction with a predilection for progressive forms of MS.
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