MS & Iron in brain

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby Donnchadh » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:57 am

gainsbourg wrote:People forget that MS is basically a disease of inflamed nerve tissue in the CNS. I don't believe that inflamed nerves can metabolise iron or oxygen correctly (for whatever reason - possibly the faulty metabolism is triggered by the presence of the herpes virus). There was a study in Egypt a couple of years ago that first drew attention to this faulty iron metabolism. It was discussed in this forum a couple of years ago (as was iron and chelation) - I'll look it up later if anyone is interested.

The end result is a surplus of free iron, which gets deposited in the white matter of the CNS - specifically in the region of the inflamed nerve tissue. You can see the dark patches in the new, more powerful MRI scans of anyone with MS.

I wouldn't be in the least surprised if eventually they find out that having high iron intake can prevent the body from re-absorbing the excess iron in the brain, but saying that iron causes MS is, for me, unlikely.

It's like saying CCSVI causes MS, when most likely venous problems are a symptom of MS, not the cause. A symptom that in my opinion will turn out to be caused by something like the brain struggling to deal with the extra blood brought in to provide nutrients for compromised nerves - but that's a different discussion.


gainsbourg


With all due respect, I think you have it backasswards. CCSVI DOES cause "MS" by blood reflux from a prior venous disorder. Even at this very early stage of discovery, there has been numerous documented cases of congenital venous disorders (stenosis, reversed valves, etc.) which have to have been present long before any onset of "MS" symptoms or formation of lesions. Indeed, the vast majority of "MS" patients have never had any viral infections which could have been the "trigger mechanism" as you suggested. I am not saying that serious neurological problems couldn't be caused by biological agents (and far more likely, by trauma), but that most cases are due to CCSVI.

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Postby gainsbourg » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:34 pm

With all due respect, I think you have it backasswards

LOL Donnnchadh! You have a charming way with words!

The idea that CCSVI is a symptom of MS, not the cause, may upset a few people - but that doesn't mean it's not worth investigating.

The truth can often look "backasswards" at first. Think how we used to assume that the sun travelled round the earth, or that the earth was flat - just because that was the way it looked.

If CCSVI were to turn out to be a symptom of MS rather than the cause it would account for why only about 60% of those with MS have venous abnormalities. For me that's a much simpler and more likely explanation than saying "it's because MS obviously has more than one cause." In any case there is no conclusive evidence that CCSVI is a congenital condition - not all doctors are so sure about this.

Also, many experts are now saying that MS probably starts years before any symptoms show, maybe as early as childhood.

Treating CCSVI seems to help a great many, though not all, with their MS symptoms. In the future I'm sure a lot more liberation treatment will be available (if it keeps living up to it's promise) but I wouldn't be surprised if we look back in a couple of years time at the idea that CCSVI causes MS as a naive assumption.



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Postby patientx » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:58 pm

Donnchadh wrote:With all due respect, I think you have it backasswards. CCSVI DOES cause "MS" by blood reflux from a prior venous disorder. Even at this very early stage of discovery, there has been numerous documented cases of congenital venous disorders (stenosis, reversed valves, etc.) which have to have been present long before any onset of "MS" symptoms or formation of lesions. Indeed, the vast majority of "MS" patients have never had any viral infections which could have been the "trigger mechanism" as you suggested. I am not saying that serious neurological problems couldn't be caused by biological agents (and far more likely, by trauma), but that most cases are due to CCSVI.

Donnchadh

With all due respect, there are a number of problems with what you wrote.
CCSVI DOES cause "MS" by blood reflux from a prior venous disorder.

You state this like it's a foregone conclusion. It's only a foregone conclusion with its most ardent believers.
there has been numerous documented cases of congenital venous disorders (stenosis, reversed valves, etc.) which have to have been present long before any onset of "MS" symptoms or formation of lesions.

Could you give us just one of these documented cases?
Indeed, the vast majority of "MS" patients have never had any viral infections which could have been the "trigger mechanism" as you suggested.

Absolutely incorrect. The vast majority of MS patients have had a particular viral infection - Epstein Barr virus.
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Postby shye » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:13 pm

Indeed, the vast majority of "MS" patients have never had any viral infections which could have been the "trigger mechanism" as you suggested.

what about Chlamydia Pneumonia?? Isn't that also prevalent in many of us?? (I read this recently, so got my dr to give me a script to get the test done--will do so next week--should be interesting).
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Postby sbr487 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:01 am

gainsbourg wrote:It's like saying CCSVI causes MS, when most likely venous problems are a symptom of MS, not the cause.


Any credible hypothesis should prove that an effect is not confused with cause. I think your point is valid and has been brought up earlier.
I think someone also countered this argument saying (probably Dr. Embry but I am not sure) that one can still consider a possibility of vein deformity but its rather hard to visualize other issues like fused leaflets, inverted valves etc. being caused by inflammation or being side effect of MS itself. I am sure things will become clear as we go along ...

gainsbourg wrote:In any case there is no conclusive evidence that CCSVI is a congenital condition - not all doctors are so sure about this.


Not that its a conclusive evidence but I believe there is a paper that took cue from CCSVI and tried to find if there was any gene that can be implicated for malformed veins. The paper at least seems to indicate that this is the case.

PS: I personally feel that gene studies are still at their infancy and we still don't know quite a bit about them ...
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Re: CCSVI and brain circulation

Postby NHE » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:08 am

gainsbourg wrote:It's like saying CCSVI causes MS, when most likely venous problems are a symptom of MS, not the cause. A symptom that in my opinion will turn out to be caused by something like the brain struggling to deal with the extra blood brought in to provide nutrients for compromised nerves - but that's a different discussion.


However, people with CCSVI have been shown to have poor circulation in the brain and low blood oxygenation.

Here's one example...

http://www.hubbardfoundation.org/CCSVI_fmri.html

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Re: CCSVI and brain circulation

Postby sbr487 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:06 am

NHE wrote:
gainsbourg wrote:It's like saying CCSVI causes MS, when most likely venous problems are a symptom of MS, not the cause. A symptom that in my opinion will turn out to be caused by something like the brain struggling to deal with the extra blood brought in to provide nutrients for compromised nerves - but that's a different discussion.


However, people with CCSVI have been shown to have poor circulation in the brain and low blood oxygenation.

Here's one example...

http://www.hubbardfoundation.org/CCSVI_fmri.html

NHE


NHE, thanks for the link. I had not seen this before.
I am assuming that the total area under the curve roughly provides the volume of oxygenated blood delivered. Also, wondering what the negative value mean.

A bit of trivia: I think the fMRI plots are those of Dr. Hubbard's son
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Re: CCSVI and brain circulation

Postby cheerleader » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:55 am

NHE wrote:
However, people with CCSVI have been shown to have poor circulation in the brain and low blood oxygenation.

Here's one example...

http://www.hubbardfoundation.org/CCSVI_fmri.html

NHE


Thanks for linking this, NHE- Yes, that's his son, Devin. The reason Dr. Hubbard became involved in CCSVI research.
There are more of these reports to come! It was illuminating meeting with Dr. Hubbard and Dr. Haacke last week to hear about the BOLD fMRI imaging and the changes they are seeing pre and post angioplasty. Dr. Haacke's protocol is going to be adding a lot to the research.

He is also testing SWI MRI at 3, 6 months and a year, to see changes in iron deposition in MS brains after angioplasty. I had a terrific sit down video conversation with the doctors, which will be edited and on the CCSVI Alliance website in the coming month. I'll post when it's ready,
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Postby gainsbourg » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:20 am

NHE and Cheer - those Hubbard MRI research findings are quite astounding.

But for me, we're now left with a chicken and egg situation. Few can now doubt that MS is associated with blood flow problems in the brain - it's just that I think the blood flow problems come FIRST and the veins become damaged second (as a result of those blood flow problems) compounding the whole situation.

The brain needs a massive and constant delivery of blood. Nerves of the CNS use up huge quantities of oxygen, iron and glucose - far more than anywhere else in the body. They need a constant supply of these nutrients to function properly.

MS is basically chronic inflammation of CNS nerves, and once inflamed, the delivery of blood must surely alter or be disrupted in some way or other. Maybe the body tries to compensate for the inflammation by delivering even more blood to help the sick nerves, or conversely perhaps blood flow is reduced because it can only move slowly through inflamed tissue. Either way, it seems logical that chronic inflammation could be the cause of chronic blood flow changes. The unnatural flow then puts a strain on the venous drainage system.

It's like wearing high heels - don't be surprised if wearing them too often disrupts the blood flow to your leg muscles to the extent that you end up getting varicose veins. The same thing can happen if you disrupt the leg circulation by standing up to much, or subjecting your legs to other unnatural strain. Okay, there are doctors who disagree with this notion, saying it's all congenital. Doctors often dismiss "strain theories" because they are so notoriously hard to prove e.g. the idea that hemorrhoids are caused by constipation (or pregnancy) restricting blood flow to the rectum.

But why would nerves in the CNS become inflamed in the first place? That's still the billion dollar question. My guess is that the presence of the herpes virus in nerve tissue (e.g. varicella zoster virus - present in almost every case of MS) somehow scares the immune system into periodically attacking healthy tissue, and that once inflamed, these nerves simply can't metabolise oxygen, or iron normally.

JL, i don't know about zinc, but there is no doubt there is faulty iron metabolsm in MS:

http://msj.sagepub.com/content/14/5/602.abstract

sbr487 - Did you know that you can't induce EAE ("rodent MS") in mice who are deficient in iron? Iron deficiency seems to protect against MS in mice. Maybe that's because the low iron levels somehow correct the metabolic imbalance.


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Postby cheerleader » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:00 am

Gains--
Blood flow does not create the venous malformations being found in CCSVI, most are congenital. Disturbed blood flow cannot create an inverted valve, a missing vein, an arachnoid cyst or a web. All of these truncular congenital venous malformations are being found in CCSVI. What disturbed blood flow CAN do is exacerbate inflammation and make CCSVI even worse, especially as the body ages.

Here is the paper on this topic by Dr. Byung B. Lee--the leading international expert on venous malformations -

http://www.fondazionehilarescere.org/pd ... 8-ANGY.pdf
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Postby MrSuccess » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:45 pm

regarding the importance of blood flow INTO our brain and as we have come to discover - OUT of our brains [ well .... not everyone agrees ] ..it is a well known technique taught in law enforcement ... to render those being arrested .... by applying force to the side of the neck .... WITHOUT applying any restriction to the throat ..... into a state of unconsciousness .

The restriction is to blood flow .... NOT .... air flow.

The effect is temporary loss of consciousness .... and then the person can be secured ...... as far as I know ..... without further harm.



No .... I have no experience on either end of this . :wink:





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Postby gainsbourg » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:34 pm

Cheer - I'm not doubting that many with MS may turn out to have a genetic predispostion to the list of vascular defects that you mention, it's just that I believe MS exploits these weaknesses - rather than believe that MS is created by them. The same congenital disposition might also be quite common amongst healthy people, only we'll probably never know if that's true - because if those with the disposition don't have MS they are much less likely to get CCSVI.

In other words, these weaknesses only bring about CCSVI when changes in blood flow (caused by the presence of chronically inflamed nerves in the CNS) put a strain on the vasculature

In fact, this would very neatly explain why about 40% of those with MS don't have CCSVI.....it's because these are the ones without any of those congenital weaknesses! This makes far more sense to me than struggling to explain why the 40% without CCSVI still get MS.

Similarly, not everyone with a congenital predisposition to varicose veins in the legs will get them - only the ones who disrupt the normal blood flow by wearing high heeled shoes for years on end, or standing up all day long will get them. Or, if you like this is why peope with a congenital weakness in the veins of the rectum don't all get hemorrhoids - only the ones who disrupt the blood flow through constipation, straining or pregnancy get them.

Interestingly, doctors these days are far more reluctant to agree to the common sense notion that strain of any kind causes varicose veins or piles. This is due to the fashion of wanting to blame disease on either genes, micro-organisms or toxins. You can empirically test a hypothesis that measures microbes, viruses, genes or poisons much more easily than factors such as "strain", or small changes in blood flow.

The brain is designed to pump 1.5 pints of blood per minute back to the heart. No more, no less - even a slight change over a long period of time, could start exploiting venous weaknesses.


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Last edited by gainsbourg on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Cece » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:45 pm

gainsbourg wrote:You see this would very neatly explain why about 40% of those with MS don't have CCSVI - it's because these are the ones without any of those congenital weaknesses! This makes far more sense to me than struggling to explain why the 40% without CCSVI still get MS.

Personally I disagree with the 40% figure. It comes from the unpublished Buffalo research. It was determined through MRV testing and we've had reports here of people who had one thing told to them through the Buffalo MRV testing and a totally different thing found during catheter venorgam. I believe Dr. Haacke has refined his CCSVI MRVs since then but that it is an unproven tool for finding CCSVI (as compared to Zamboni's doppler ultrasound).

Clinically, almost absolutely everyone with MS who has gone for testing has been diagnosed with CCSVI. There are too many doctors finding it clinically for me to find fault with those doctors. Dr. Sinan's numbers in Kuwait and Dr. Simka's also match with Dr. Zamboni's in the 90%-100% range.
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Postby Bethr » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:14 pm

The latest research by Maria De Sousa shows that lymphocytes play a major part in iron metabolism and also carry iron. The iron system and the immune system are tightly linked. It's a whole new ball game, but I think very important in MS research and for many other disorders including cancer.

Maybe it's somewhere else we can push for more research?

When the immune system is stimulated by say, a virus. The immune system using lymphocytes etc store the iron away from the virus.
A Dr would probably say, you are anemic and give you iron supplements!

Lymphocytes can go just about anywhere in the body. So it is not necessarily hemosiderin (blood) that is leaving iron deposits in the brain?
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Postby shye » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:32 pm

Bethr
but what would be the reason the lymphocytes release the iron to the brain? Wouldn't the lymphocytes normally sequester any extra iron they would find?
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