MS & Iron in brain

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby gainsbourg » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:30 am

Bethr said:
The iron system and the immune system are tightly linked.

MS appears to involve inappropriate immune response. Iron affects lymphocytes. Herpes is renowned for affecting lymphocytes - any connection here?


Shye said:
what would be the reason the lymphocytes release the iron to the brain?

It would be interesting to know why rodent MS cannot be induced in mice with low iron - i wonder if it has something to do with this iron/ lymphocyte connection?


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Postby Donnchadh » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:40 am

Bethr wrote:The latest research by Maria De Sousa shows that lymphocytes play a major part in iron metabolism and also carry iron. The iron system and the immune system are tightly linked. It's a whole new ball game, but I think very important in MS research and for many other disorders including cancer.

Maybe it's somewhere else we can push for more research?

When the immune system is stimulated by say, a virus. The immune system using lymphocytes etc store the iron away from the virus.
A Dr would probably say, you are anemic and give you iron supplements!

Lymphocytes can go just about anywhere in the body. So it is not necessarily hemosiderin (blood) that is leaving iron deposits in the brain?


This unproven assertion is, essentially, the last grasp of the auto-immune theory for "MS" by trying to link up CCSVI with some sort of viral infection. Previous posts have made blanket claims that nearly all "MS" patients have been infected by such-and-such virus which is patently absurd. Personally, I have been diagnosed as PP MS and came back with negative results for all of the suggested viral agents.

The CCSVI venous disorders seen in nearly all "MS" patients are probably either congenital (in the vast majority) or as the result of trauma. If there was a viral origin, it would have to be isolated and tested to see if it could indeed cause an infection capable of creating lesions.

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Postby gainsbourg » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:19 am

Donnchadh wrote:Previous posts have made blanket claims that nearly all "MS" patients have been infected by such-and-such virus which is patently absurd

Perhaps you've not seen the recent findings about herpes and MS. Did you know that people who are not infected with Epstein-Barr virus almost never get MS?

http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis ... nked-to-ms

MS risk is extremely low among individuals not infected with EBV, but it increases sharply in the same individuals following EBV infection:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 8/abstract

Also, an experiment a year or so ago revealed that the DNA of another herpes virus (Varicalla Zoster, i.e. chicken pox) was found in the spinal fluid of all those tested who had MS (increasing more than 500 fold during attacks) but not in the spinal fluid of any of the controls:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18306233

For me it's not really now a question of whether viruses (or for that matter CCSVI and iron) are involved in MS. The question now is how are they involved - and could any of them actually be part of the cause?



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MS is complex and multi-factorial

Postby MarkW » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:54 am

I would like to insert a little warning to this discussion:
MS is complex and multi-factorial..................
That means any of the factors mentioned may impact MS. For me its far too early to dismiss immunity as a factor in MS. Also please keep in mind that red blood cells do not pass the blood brain barrier so depositing iron in the brain is not a simple process. No one has mentioned gene transcription which is likely to be involved somewhere and is very complex.
The speculation is entertaining but please do not think that you have the answer to MS.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Postby Donnchadh » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:18 am

gainsbourg wrote:
Donnchadh wrote:Previous posts have made blanket claims that nearly all "MS" patients have been infected by such-and-such virus which is patently absurd

Perhaps you've not seen the recent findings about herpes and MS. Did you know that people who are not infected with Epstein-Barr virus almost never get MS?

http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis ... nked-to-ms

MS risk is extremely low among individuals not infected with EBV, but it increases sharply in the same individuals following EBV infection:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 8/abstract

Also, an experiment a year or so ago revealed that the DNA of another herpes virus (Varicalla Zoster, i.e. chicken pox) was found in the spinal fluid of all those tested who had MS (increasing more than 500 fold during attacks) but not in the spinal fluid of any of the controls:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18306233

For me it's not really now a question of whether viruses (or for that matter CCSVI and iron) are involved in MS. The question now is how are they involved - and could any of them actually be part of the cause?



gainsbourg


Again I have to say that I have never been infected by EBV; so according to your logic either I am not really a "MS" case or I am the sole excetion to your claim?

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Postby sbr487 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:05 am

Donnchadh wrote:
gainsbourg wrote:
Donnchadh wrote:Previous posts have made blanket claims that nearly all "MS" patients have been infected by such-and-such virus which is patently absurd

Perhaps you've not seen the recent findings about herpes and MS. Did you know that people who are not infected with Epstein-Barr virus almost never get MS?

http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis ... nked-to-ms

MS risk is extremely low among individuals not infected with EBV, but it increases sharply in the same individuals following EBV infection:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 8/abstract

Also, an experiment a year or so ago revealed that the DNA of another herpes virus (Varicalla Zoster, i.e. chicken pox) was found in the spinal fluid of all those tested who had MS (increasing more than 500 fold during attacks) but not in the spinal fluid of any of the controls:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18306233

For me it's not really now a question of whether viruses (or for that matter CCSVI and iron) are involved in MS. The question now is how are they involved - and could any of them actually be part of the cause?



gainsbourg


Again I have to say that I have never been infected by EBV; so according to your logic either I am not really a "MS" case or I am the sole excetion to your claim?

Donnchadh


all viruses are opportunistic by nature. no one knows if EBV infection is the cause or effect of MS.

At any rate, I don't know if there is any study that shows that anything can be done to reverse the effect of EBV, but so far reversing CCSVI condition seems to help ...
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
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Postby 1eye » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:18 am

This is where I agree: stay on your medication, especially if it's anti-viral. Don't sue me. I ain't a doctor. But infections can get pretty life-threatening when you have 'MS'/CCSVI. I'm not a kook who wants you to be on antimicrobials all the time. But people in nursing homes are given them when there is something 'going around'. CCSVI might result in infection, or re-infection. This is what I have meant when I said it is a cause of 'MS'. If there is any immune system problem, like Tcells crossing the BBB, it is likely to be caused by CCSVI.

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Postby Bethr » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:37 am

Hi Donnachadh
I wasn't really trying to link MS to a virus.
I was trying to explain what happens with iron when a perceived invader enters the body, the bodies reaction is to hide the iron from the invader. It's hidden in places that can't be easily accessed.
Lymphocytes do cross the BBB.
What that invader is, I have no idea. Could be anything from a chemical to a virus I suppose. I'm no doctor, but I do read a lot on iron research.
Lymphocytes can also produce hepcidin. Hepcidin controls iron.
It's an incredibly complex system, but very interrelated.

People who genetically load iron, as in genetic hemochromatosis, have low lymphocyte levels for some reason.

Anyways, heres the research http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100422/Human-lymphocytes-produce-hepcidin-that-regulate-iron-levels-in-the-body-Study.aspx
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Postby gainsbourg » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:58 pm

Donnchadh - It's interesting that you've never had EPV and I admit it might blow a hole in the argument if it turned out there were many like you who had no trace in their blood.

Are you sure you have actually been tested, specifically for EPV? Many people don't realise they have been infected with it because they never feel sick. Once infected however, you harbour the virus for good. One study tested 305 people with MS for EBV....and every single one was a carrier. Of course you rarely get a consistant 100% in any medical survey....but it's still odd if there's no trace of EBV virus in your blood - maybe it's because you are PPMS.

PPMS has quite a few differences to RRMS and often fails to resond to the same drugs and treatments - maybe that's because it's triggered by some other virus.


Guillane Barre Syndrome is the peripheral nervous system equivalent of MS. It's an inlammatory, demyelinating "autoimmune" illness of the nerves on the other side of the BBB. Something stimulates the immune system to destroy the myelin sheath that surrounds the axons of many nerve cells - often the symptoms are like MS. It usually starts suddenly, in acute form, so it's been easier to track down what may trigger it. And guess what? They discovered that it's usually triggered of by bacterial or viral infection.

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Postby Donnchadh » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:12 pm

gainsbourg wrote:Donnchadh - It's interesting that you've never had EPV and I admit it might blow a hole in the argument if it turned out there were many like you who had no trace in their blood.

Are you sure you have actually been tested, specifically for EPV? Many people don't realise they have been infected with it because they never feel sick. Once infected however, you harbour the virus for good. One study tested 305 people with MS for EBV....and every single one was a carrier. Of course you rarely get a consistant 100% in any medical survey....but it's still odd if there's no trace of EBV virus in your blood - maybe it's because you are PPMS.

PPMS has quite a few differences to RRMS and often fails to resond to the same drugs and treatments - maybe that's because it's triggered by some other virus.


Guillane Barre Syndrome is the peripheral nervous system equivalent of MS. It's an inlammatory, demyelinating "autoimmune" illness of the nerves on the other side of the BBB. Something stimulates the immune system to destroy the myelin sheath that surrounds the axons of many nerve cells - often the symptoms are like MS. It usually starts suddenly, in acute form, so it's been easier to track down what triggers it. And guess what? They discovered that it's usually preceded by bacterial or viral infection.

gainsbourg


This could be an interesting research topic....have the confirmed cases of CCSVI tested to determine if they had EBV.

You are still assuming that all MS cases have some sort of viral interaction. I could conceive a situation where a virus could a cause nerve damage....but that doesn't explain the rapidly expanding case histories showing CCSVI venous disorders.

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Postby patticake66 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:46 pm

Donnachadh
Lets not forget the vaccines we are all given. To say that you don't have the EBV might be so, but what vaccines were given to you as a child and as an adult? It is not too off track to still consider a virus as the culprit of MS. After all, many people were diagnosed with MS directly after receiving vaccines. Chicken Pox virus stays dormant in a persons system forever....what about just a stomach virus that one picks up...who says it has to be EBV...vaccines are virus' and bacterias...live and dead....disrupt the immune system and you get Ms.... And I know many of you on this site refuse to accept this notion.....but there are plenty of medically reported cases as well as anectodal cases that support this notion.
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Postby Donnchadh » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:49 pm

I am beginning to find it amazing how determined the viral-causal advocates are.....especially since the CCSVI liberation procedure is essentially "a plumbing job" and would have no anti-viral effect.

Of course, you could say that CCSVI patients really don't have "MS" or that their reported improvements are just placebo.

If "MS" was caused by a virus, I would have thought that after 70 years the auto-immune theory adherents it would have isolated and identified it by now.

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Postby sbr487 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:41 pm

gainsbourg wrote:Guillane Barre Syndrome is the peripheral nervous system equivalent of MS. It's an inlammatory, demyelinating "autoimmune" illness of the nerves on the other side of the BBB. gainsbourg


I don't know what to make out of someone bringing these arguments into the discussion. Patients with GBS tend to recover within a short period. So how one can confuse GBS with MS (except in the initial phase of the disease) is something I don't understand ...

To Donnchadh,

As an MS patient, where do I put my money. Do I put my money behind these viruses and other theories that may or may not have any solution. Or for CCSVI if proven is the primary causal factor can be fixed in most cases ...
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it
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Postby gainsbourg » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:50 am

sbr487 wrote:I don't know what to make out of someone bringing these arguments into the discussion


I definitely think it's worth looking at GBS and CIDP in connection with CCSVI, iron and viruses - because it could tell us much about MS

Yes GBS patients do often recover (after being given similar drugs often identical to those they use for MS) Nerves in the peripheral nervous system have differences, for example they can repair easily, but many with GBS go on to get the chronic form known as CIDP. Any neurogist will tell you how tricky it can be to distinguish MS from CIDP, especially before MRIs were available.

If you were looking at a biopsy of a demyelinated nerve of the spine and then one of a nerve root (a few centimetres the other side of the BBB) - the damage looks very similar. It would astound me if such damage had two completely different causes - i.e. if the MS damage was caused by a circulation defect and the CIDP damage caused by a virus - especially as some peole seem to have both disorders.

Of course most neurologists would simply say "it's all autoimmune"


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Postby sbr487 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:30 am

If you were looking at a biopsy of a demyelinated nerve of the spine and then one of a nerve root (a few centimetres the other side of the BBB) - the damage looks very similar. It would astound me if such damage had two completely different causes - i.e. if the MS damage was caused by a circulation defect and the CIDP damage caused by a virus - especially as some peole seem to have both disorders.


Why do you think that is not possible? After all, both immune and virus activity happens at cell level. But do you have any reference paper that indicates that micro damage in MS and CIDP are identical?
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