oxygen and dreaming

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

oxygen and dreaming

Postby Cece » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:19 pm

Over on the facebook page she monitors, Joan has posted a note that sheds some light on how dreaming and better sleep ties into CCSVI.

REM sleep uses more cerebral oxygen than nonREM sleep.

The eye movements of REM sleep have been suggested to be a way for the eye to 'shake up' its contents to improve oxygenation. (This is a paraphrase!)

A lot of us have reported better sleep or dreaming after treatment or after inclining our beds.
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Postby cheerleader » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:28 pm

Thanks for posting, Cece...I was going to make a post later. Yes, I've been fascinated with the return of dreaming after pwCCSVI are treated. Here's an edited version what I wrote up on Facebook, after reading that Dr. Embry's son has also begun to dream again.

One of the most profound, although seemingly minor changes for my husband, now 18 months since his angioplasty--has been the return of dreaming. After his procedure, he would wake up in the morning and recount for me his vivid dream from the night before. It was so strange to us...he realized that for several years, he couldn't remember his dreams. When I went to the CCSVI international symposium in Bologna last year, Dr. Salvi got up and spoke about the changes in his patients after angioplasty. And one of the global differences his patients noted was deeper, more restful sleep...and the return of dreams. He had a wonderful illustration that came on the screen during his power-point... a cartoon of a person deeply sleeping, smiling, with a colorful dream bubble over their head. I almost leapt out of my seat. "That's happened to Jeff!" I whisper/exclaimed to Dr. Dake, seated on my left. "He's dreaming again."

Now, I read time and time again from patients and their caregivers about the return of deep, restful sleep and dreaming. I realize that dreaming might not seem important in the grand scheme of recovery from MS....but I believe it is. I believe it is proof of a brain that is healing. A brain that does not have REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, does not dream. There is research that links dreams, REM sleep and oxygenation.

"REM sleep time is strongly reduced by hypoxic and increased by hyperoxic atmosphere, in accordance with the existence of an O2 diffusion limitation. Any pathological decrease in arterial PO2 and/or O2 delivery creates a specific risk in REM sleep."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382905

______________________________________________________

During REM sleep, there is an increase in blood flow to the limbic system and the brain stem, with circulation to these structures decreasing during non-REM sleep. As brain activity increases during REM sleep, the cerebral requirements for glucose and oxygen both increase....
Fundamentals of Sleep Technology--Butkov, Lee-Choing 2007

_______________________________________________________

One would normally consider David Maurice, Ph.D., professor of ocular physiology in the Department of Ophthalmology at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center, a revolutionary. Nevertheless, he has reignited a decades-long controversy that could spark a revolutionary re-evaluation of an entire field of behavioral research. Dr. Maurice has developed a startling new line of scientific inquiry that, when added to other findings, could change our understanding of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep and the nature of dreams.

What Maurice has done is to suggest an alternative explanation for the phenomenon known as REM sleep, the stage in which the eyes rapidly move and most dreams occur. Dr. Maurice isn't convinced by currently accepted theories about why REM occurs, including the widespread belief that REM exists mainly to process memories of the preceding day's events during dreams. Instead, he hypothesizes that while they sleep humans experience REM to supply much-needed oxygen to the cornea of the eye. In a recent issue of Experimental Eye Research, Maurice suggests that the aqueous humor--the clear watery liquid in the anterior chamber just behind the cornea--needs to be "stirred" to bring oxygen to the cornea.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue- ... echer.html
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This research into REM and oxygenation is still in the beginning phases. I wonder if the fact of slowed perfusion through MS brains creates a need for oxygen, and that the lack of REM sleep proves this. Perhaps the low level oxygen deprivation in the brain caused by CCSVI causes what we now understand as MS spasms, myclonus, and apnea--- in a drastic attempt by the brain to rouse the body, to sit up, to take in more oxygen. My husband used to wake violently in the night, gasping for air. His spasms would jerk him awake. Before angioplasty, he never slept thru the night. He never dreamed. No wonder he was exhausted all day.

Now, I'm the one who wakes in the night-- to see him next to me, peaceful, breathing normally, and dreaming. What has changed? He used to have two malformed jugular veins which deferred to skinny, insufficient collaterals. As soon as he lay down to sleep, those jugulars created slowed perfusion. After angioplasty, he has one vein at 100% and another which is still malformed, but much better. And that is enough to allow his brain the oxygen it needs. That is enough for REM, for dreaming, for healing.
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby PCakes » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:35 pm

Hi Cece and Joan (sorry),

Thank you for posting this. It is interesting, timely and reminded me to look this up...
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brai ... _sleep.htm

The first REM sleep period usually occurs about 70 to 90 minutes after we fall asleep. A complete sleep cycle takes 90 to 110 minutes on average. The first sleep cycles each night contain relatively short REM periods and long periods of deep sleep. As the night progresses, REM sleep periods increase in length while deep sleep decreases. By morning, people spend nearly all their sleep time in stages 1, 2, and REM.


Last night's sleep was again 'fitfull' and followed a pattern of many previous wherein I wake up every 90 minutes clockwork like.

This morning i wondered 'why'?

Another curiousity for me.. my mom once told me, years ago, that she 'never' dreamed then days after angioplasty to resolve cardiac issues she called, very excited to say that she had the previous night a very vivid and colour filled dream.. this for me, is cause to ponder the possible systemic nature of ccsvi.
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Postby cheerleader » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:54 pm

PCakes wrote:Another curiousity for me.. my mom once told me, years ago, that she 'never' dreamed then days after angioplasty to resolve cardiac issues she called, very excited to say that she had the previous night a very vivid and colour filled dream.. this for me, is cause to ponder the possible systemic nature of ccsvi.


What cardiac issues and CCSVI potentially might share, PC, is diffuse cerebral hypoxia. Arterial blockage is a known reason for low oxygenation in the brain--and new studies by Hubbard and Zivadinov are showing hypoperfusion/hypo oxygenation in the CCSVI brain (Dr. Zamboni discusses this research in his new video interview which was just posted.)
more to come!
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby bluesky63 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:45 pm

This timing is great. This morning I woke from dreams and spent some considering the idea of CCSVI/MS as a sleep disorder. I always told my doctors that it didn't matter how tired I was -- I would wake up regularly no matter what. And I hadn't realized that I had stopped dreaming till my dreams life came back after my procedure -- vivid and wonderful, along with genuine sleep. I love how this ties together. :-)

If you're right about myoclonus and spasms being a mechanism to rouse people and increase oxygenation, then perhaps medicating people to tone down those things would also, in effect, increase their disability through dampening their arousal. Kind of a catch-22.
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Postby David1949 » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:00 pm

Is the lack of dreams a symptom of MS? I have MS but I dream frequently. Mostly they're wierd dreams but maybe that's a result of watching the sci-fi channel too much. :)
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Postby Cece » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:07 pm

Great work, Joan. Sorry if I posted too quickly. I've wondered about the connection but never had any theories before this.

These in particular stand out:
"REM sleep time is strongly reduced by hypoxic and increased by hyperoxic atmosphere, in accordance with the existence of an O2 diffusion limitation. Any pathological decrease in arterial PO2 and/or O2 delivery creates a specific risk in REM sleep."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382905

______________________________________________________

During REM sleep, there is an increase in blood flow to the limbic system and the brain stem, with circulation to these structures decreasing during non-REM sleep. As brain activity increases during REM sleep, the cerebral requirements for glucose and oxygen both increase....
Fundamentals of Sleep Technology--Butkov, Lee-Choing 2007

For years I've paid attention to my dreams or lack of dreams as a sign of health. Inclining my bed had an immediate pay-off with more dreams and less fatigue and feeling better.
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Postby silverbirch » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:56 pm

I dont dream

I then had the liberation treatment( 60/70 % blocked LIJ) ballooning following liberation I then had 1 or 2 dreams - to be fair I never paid it much attention...

Im going to attend the Hyperboric Chamber and will pay the dream theory more attention.

Then increase of oxygen should increase the dreaming ? or have I got it wrong
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Please Don't Jump To Conclusions

Postby MarkW » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:39 am

Yes it is a very interesting observation that dreaming returns after venoplasty. For me, dreaming decreased over many years as my MS progressed. After venoplasty dreaming has increased.
However the role of dreaming and REM sleep is not agreed amongst brain specialists. So saying what dreams returning after venoplasty means is a step to far for the logical part of my brain. Measuring REM sleep before and after venoplasty could be a cheap non invasive way of indicating something has happened during venoplasty. I hope some researcher is measuring temperature of feet before and after venoplasty, another cheap way a showing a physical change from venoplasty.
Eventually we should have simple physical measures (like foot temperature) to indicate destenosis and restenosis, rather than pwMS's gut feel and an invasive venogram.
So my usual 'please don't jump to conclusions'. Yes something is happening but who knows what exactly. As a pwMS should I really care or just enjoy the change ?
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Postby silverbirch » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:34 am

Hey forum members

Apoligies in advance what is REM sleep ?
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Postby cheerleader » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:05 am

silverbirch wrote:Hey forum members

Apoligies in advance what is REM sleep ?


REM sleep is rapid eye movement sleep, silver. Here's a good description:

During sleep, we usually pass through five phases of sleep: stages 1, 2, 3, 4, and REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. These stages progress in a cycle from stage 1 to REM sleep, then the cycle starts over again with stage 1 (see figure 1 ). We spend almost 50 percent of our total sleep time in stage 2 sleep, about 20 percent in REM sleep, and the remaining 30 percent in the other stages. Infants, by contrast, spend about half of their sleep time in REM sleep.

During stage 1, which is light sleep, we drift in and out of sleep and can be awakened easily. Our eyes move very slowly and muscle activity slows. People awakened from stage 1 sleep often remember fragmented visual images. Many also experience sudden muscle contractions called hypnic myoclonia, often preceded by a sensation of starting to fall. These sudden movements are similar to the "jump" we make when startled. When we enter stage 2 sleep, our eye movements stop and our brain waves (fluctuations of electrical activity that can be measured by electrodes) become slower, with occasional bursts of rapid waves called sleep spindles. In stage 3, extremely slow brain waves called delta waves begin to appear, interspersed with smaller, faster waves. By stage 4, the brain produces delta waves almost exclusively. It is very difficult to wake someone during stages 3 and 4, which together are called deep sleep. There is no eye movement or muscle activity. People awakened during deep sleep do not adjust immediately and often feel groggy and disoriented for several minutes after they wake up. Some children experience bedwetting, night terrors, or sleepwalking during deep sleep.

When we switch into REM sleep, our breathing becomes more rapid, irregular, and shallow, our eyes jerk rapidly in various directions, and our limb muscles become temporarily paralyzed. Our heart rate increases, our blood pressure rises, and males develop penile erections. When people awaken during REM sleep, they often describe bizarre and illogical tales – dreams.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brai ... _sleep.htm

And researchers have noted higher cerebral oxygen consumption during REM....
During rapid-eye-movement (REM) sleep in adult subjects, the cerebral metabolic rate of oxygen consumption (CMRO) is as high as that during wakefulness.


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0521.x/pdf

You can see why there's more O2 needed during REM...REM sleep is active sleep.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby 1eye » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:02 am

When I was a young buck, my friend Ian was into brain stuff for the psych major and I was into analogue electronics. We found an op-amp circuit for the low frequencies, with silver electrodes, and he wanted to use it for biofeedback. I built two, but I don't know if either one still exists. They would be ideal, though, for sleep measurements. I think I still don't dream. I don't remember them, but maybe it's because I never get waked up. I dunno. Think I'll try to find one of those machines. Definitely *no* male (can't be a female one) penile erections.
"Try - Just A Little Bit Harder" - Janis Joplin
CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
Patients sans/without patience
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Postby Kleiner » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:55 pm

Does anyone know of any correlation between MS (CCSVI) and sleep apnea? I was diagnosed with sleep apnea while going through the million tests to detemine i had MS. I tried the CPAP machine for months but it didn't offer any relief. I am starting to now think that my sleep apnea could have something to do with blood flow and not enough oxygen to the brain and that is what is waking my up constantly not the typical sleep apnea (throat closing). Just a theory and I was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this.

Thanks
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Postby Cece » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:12 pm

My husband has sleep apnea. Have you done the overnight sleep study? They are thorough! Oxygen saturation levels from that should show if oxygen is dropping in your blood elsewhere than the brain. I would think this would be critical to get under control for an MSer especially. It's oxygen deprivation on top of oxygen deprivation. :(

If the initial CPAP machine didn't work, a doctor might upgrade a patient to one of the more high-tech ones that do the breathing differently and keep a record of any apnea episodes for the doctor to look over. An oxygen concentrator is the next step up too. I want one of those and I don't have sleep apnea....
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Postby 1eye » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:56 pm

OK... two things happen when you lie down and go to sleep - one, your jugulars should open and carry some of the blood, since gravity is no longer there to push it through your vertebrals. Two, your thoracic pump may produce some reflux if it is so inclined. This is just jugulars we are talking about. I don't know what gets the thoracic pump 'exercised' enough to cause reflux. But have you noticed: if only jugulars are involved, the only benefits of Liberation occur during sleep. (Or hospitalization.) Conversely, if the jugulars are the only thing blocked, the only problems happen during sleep.

That's why I have been so concerned with sleep posture and stuff. A CPAP machine sounds great, although as we know other veins are involved. As long as it doesn't turn on your reflux generator. That I have no idea how to test for. Maybe DUS should be part of the standard sleep instrumentation. I think they must get wads of kickbacks from CPAP mfrs, so they can probably afford the Ferrari one.
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