CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:29 am

Thank-you friend. Fernando, your full spine x-ray is a perfect example of something I will discuss in future posts. Suffice it to say that curvatures of the spine cause traction type strains on the cord and brainstem from the pelvis down below. Traction strains pull the brainstem inside the skull downward toward the base of the skull and foramen magnum. This can result in blockage of the venous outlets. It also causes fluid shifts inside the skull. Plumbers use 1/4 inch per 12 inches to get water to flow through pipes. A head tilt such as yours definitely causes fluid shifts in the brain. It likewise caused fluid shifts in costumenational's brain. I believe his head tilt is partly responsible for his optic neuritis which I will try to explain in future posts. At least your curves are gradual. Costumenational has a wicked kink in his upper cervical spine that is torquing the contents of nerves and blood vessels inside the foramen magnum and spinal canal.
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Postby costumenastional » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:34 am

Don't mention it Dear Dr Flanagan. I got your back.

You will listen all kinds of stuff in here. Just stick with those that matter.
Believe me, they are the vast majority.
Last edited by costumenastional on Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby uprightdoc » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:28 am

Frenando, I also forgot to mention that scoliosis causes functional stenosis, which means narrowing of the spinal canal. Curvatures of the spine pull the cord toward the inside of the canal which compresses the vertebral veins as it they round the bend resulting in venous drainage problems and venous congestion called venous hypertension. Studies from Rutgers University on circulation to the cord concluded that venous hypertension is one of the primary causes of reduced arterial blood flow to the cord called ischemia. In this regard ischemia is one of the primary suspects in the cause of demyelination. In addition to MS I think it plays a role in ALS and PLS.
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Postby fernando » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:48 am

Wow, thank you very very much Doctor, your words mean a lot to me.

Looking forward to your next article about this situation.

Thank you very much again, you staying here is very much appreciated.

Welcome again.

Fernando
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Postby CenterOfGravity » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:29 am

I've been reading here on ThisIsMS for a few months now, and this is my first post!! Brief intro here, diagnosed with MS in 1994, disease has shown itself mostly in vision problems (optic neuritis in both eyes, about 5 or 6 times one or both at a time, also a bout of diplopia, all treated with solumedrol 5 days each time), copaxone from 2003 for 5-6 years, also did Myloral (oral myelin from cows) clinical trial (failed) in mid-90s, now I'm doing well but have some fatigue and brain fog, some lingering on and off tingling in my hands, but mostly ok.

Anyhow, my last real flareup was in 2003 (had been having them every 12-18 months). After that, I did go on copaxone for 5 years but I also started regular chiropractic after a strange incident brought me to it. I also started regular acupuncture. I do think there is something to be said for keeping your body in good working order - my neck (C1-C4) is almost always out, especially C1, and during the time of both chiropractic and acupuncture, I did not have a relapse for 7 years! If neck subluxations can cause impediments in blood flow, then it makes sense to fix them regularly! I find that I *always* feel better when I can afford to do regular chiropractic and acupuncture (about once a month on average). So in any case, I'm very interested to hear about a chiropractic angle on this (and I tend to think that the concept of "chi" in acupuncture can also be related to blood flow, as they also talk about "blockages").

FYI, my chiropractor uses a combination of methods, including the activator method (which I like, especially the little tool, because never is my head or neck jerked around, there is direct pressure applied using the activator), and it made me think of Fernando's post where he said one leg is shorter. My chiro checks that every time and makes adjustments in my hips, sacrum, knees, etc, to balance that out. I think chiropractic is a great adjunct to traditional western medicine, like after the experiences I've had, I know if I hurt my back lifting something or bending wrong, and i feel that ZING, I know the chiro fixes my body instead of how an M.D. would give muscle relaxants and pain killers without treating the problem.

So in any case, I just wanted to welcome the upright doc here. Any professional who is willing to take a look at these things in an objective manner, I'm all for listening!
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Postby uprightdoc » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:47 am

I started with upper cervical, but I prefer full spine. I had a big tool box of different types of adjusting and traction and flexion distraction, long axis traction, intersegmental traction tables, as well as special drop tables, and all types of physiotherapy equipment from ultrasound and all different types of EMS. I also used the activator hammer. Quite frankly, while good equipment helps, at my current level of experience I don't need divices and tools anymore. Full spine chiropractic is important to people like Fernando and many upper cervical chiropractors don't do full spine. I have taken many courses in accupuncture. My expertise, however, is more in TCM conformation diagnosis and herbology. I also have extensive background in martial arts and chi kung exercises, which were used as much for health over the millenia as they were for combat. Much of it came from India and yoga which the ascetic monk from India, Dharuma, passed to the monks of Tibet. I have modified Tui na moves that I used therapeutically. In addition to physical anthropology I will be discussing many different important cultural anthropolgical contributions to health care on my new website.
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Postby whyRwehere » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:23 pm

Hello Dr,
I would like to know if it is advised to avoid chiropractic treatment, if one has just had the "liberation treatment" and is on blood thinners. My husband had seen a chiropractor for a couple of months, but since he has recently been worked on, on the inside, I was wondering if he should wait a bit before going back for treatment.
Also, I have found it difficult to find the right kind of chiropractor in the Paris area, do you know of any?
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Postby whyRwehere » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:29 pm

Oh, sorry, another question: I see you asked someone about TOS. A doctor has said yes, my husband has this problem. So, what can the chiropractor do for that condition, and what kind of chiropractor would be best?
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Postby uprightdoc » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:20 pm

I have worked on patients vomiting from migraine headaches, herniated discs, fractures in their spine, fractures in the base of the skull, aneurysms and staples in their brains, post stroke patients, patient's with pacemakers, wires in their brains, valve and total heart replacement, severe osteoporosis, tiny little old ladies and day old babies. I also worked on many patients with terminal illnesses.

That said, it seriously depends on who you go to and what methods they use. You need a senior chiropractor who has been around awhile and has plenty of experience dealing with difficult cases. I prefer craniosacral or SOT on cases such as your husband. Craniosacral uses no force. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone in Paris. One of my heros was a Frenchman by the name of Henry Gillett. He was a pioneer in motion palpation.
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Postby uprightdoc » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:36 pm

I got carried away. Like all neurovascular tunnel syndromes TOS has many causes such as: bad cervical discs, scalene muscle entrapment, and pectoralis entrapment. You can also have entrapement down in the brachioradialis muscle of the elbow or the carpal tunnel in the wrist or any combination of the above, which is called a double crush syndrome. In TOS cases you need to make sure there is no counter twist to the shoulders coming from pelvic misalignments. Fernando's full spine x-ray is a good cae in point. What you see is two dimensional but he is twisted in three dimensions. Twists in the spine distort the soft tissue neurovascular tunnels in the shoulder girdle. This can cause entrapment of nerves and blood vessels. I had excellent results with nearly all TOS cases right down to the elbow. Carpal tunnel was the biggest pain in the neck to deal with and the most challenging. The wrist joint takes a lot of abuse and the tunnel is tight to begin with. Chinese herbs offer many terrific options for inflammation and stagnancy.
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Postby Ruthless67 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:26 pm

Dr Flanagan,

Thank you for the referral, I was able to get in to see Dr. Jarrod Fancher in Dr Krieg’s office on Wednesday 9/29/10. I saw him in the morning for the initial exam & x-rays, then went back in the afternoon for the results. After going over and reviewing the x-rays with me, he said my Atlas was out of alignment and he also said my right leg was ½ inch shorter than the left.

He said my most severe areas were the Atlas, the C2, C4, T2, T4, T6, T8, T11 and L5. Dr. Fancher then adjusted my Atlas. I told him I’d like to share the x-rays with you but neither one of us knows how to digitalize the x-rays.

I didn’t experience any noticeable changes after the adjustment. No instant relief from symptoms like Montel Williams claims to have had. The doctor did say though that I might have some discomfort and if I did to use my soft ice packs. That wasn’t necessary though, but when I woke up in the morning I had just enough of a headache to take two regular aspirins. As I stood in the kitchen looking out the window waiting on the water to boil for my tea, I realized that I was “awake” I mean I was clearer headed than I have been in some time. So far so good, it’s Saturday night and I still feel better mentally.

On Friday, 10/2/10 I went back for my first follow up and Dr. Fancher said the Atlas adjustment had held, so he didn’t do any adjustments that day and he said my legs were also even. So he was quite delighted and said he expects to be able to treat my additional spinal problems. He said quite a few of the lower problems will correct themselves as long as the Atlas remains in place.

So we will see, in this case time really will tell. I just hope I get more out of this than I did the osteopath because Dr. Fancher has me scheduled for 11 more visits, every M,W &F in the month of October and it’s over a hundred mile roundtrip for me each time.

By the way, I have bi-lateral carpal tunnel, Raynard’s disease (I smoked from age 17 to 40 and took birth control) and frost bite on my fingers and toes. (Stupid Southern California gal goes snow skiing without the proper equipment!!) So can you advise me on the Chinese herbs? I’d really love to see if I could get even a little tactile feeling back in my fingertips.

Thanks again for all your compassion and help, I can’t begin to tell you what a blessing it is to have your expertise and guidance.

Respectfully,
Lora
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[b]Not Persuaded and Still Sceptical[/b]

Postby avantitech » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:35 pm

costumenastional wrote:
avantitech wrote:Hey Doc,

I realise this 'chiropractic view' of anatomy is the perspective from which you come, but cervical subluxations as a ‎'Likely link' to one cause for all neuro degenerative diseases?

This is a bit of a stretch in my view. Would you mind outlining the most convincing evidence for this theory or do we have to read your book to find out?

What studies if any are published in independent (non-chiropractic) peer reviewed journals and support this view?

One last question. I guess your recommended course of action to remain symptom free is for one to have your 'upper cervical spine subluxations' treated by ..... um ... 'chiropractic treatment'?


Dear TiMS members:

Dr Flanagan has certainly more important things to do with his life appart from replying to us.

If some of you do not care about what he has to say, please dont bother to come in here and play smart. Dr Flanagan is not trying to make money here. Some of you may find this difficult to squize into your thick heads and i trust that the moderators of this website will take some measures.

Let's welcome someone who has spent many many years trying to explain what may be wrong with some of us.

Last but not least, i am convinced that there are some rats in here. Be careful.


First of all I don't know how shooting the messenger is going to support any new theory no matter how many medical and anatomical words it contains.

Second, I object to this forum being used to further another agenda which appears to use the 'popularity' of CCSVI and create a new condition and acronym CCVBP which has no basis in reality, just in supposition.

The anatomically informative website has many references to 'my book' and the words 'I believe' and 'my theory'. Folks, this should start ringing some alarm bells of Pseudo Science and Trust me, I am a 'Doctor', as would claims of successfully treating a wide range of diverse neurodegenerative conditions with vertebral manipulations.

Quoting from http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com :

"...I believe that the vast majority of cases of venous drainage problems in the brain, however, are not caused by insufficient drainage capacity. In contrast to insufficiency, I believe, most cases of venous drainage problems in the brain are due to chronic craniocervical venous back pressure or CCVBP, which is acquired through trauma, aging and degenerative conditions of the cervical spine. There is plenty of physical anthropological forensic evidence to support my theory which can be seen in normal, pathological and artificially deformed skulls. Further anthropological studies should be done. I discuss the topic thoroughly in my book in the chapter called “Acute Versus Chronic Back Pressure.” There are several scenarios that can cause CCVBP..."

CCVBP? Now enter in http://scholar.google.com including the quotation marks the term "chronic craniocervical venous back pressure". Other than the author's postings...nothing. Medical encyclopedias..nothing.

Please persuade rather than preach, do develop a sense of logical balance and understand that although most of us in TiMS have enquiring minds we do also have critical thinking skills and need evidence in order to make judgments as to whether any treatment is effective.... so before people shoot off half cocked check your facts.
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Re: [b]Not Persuaded and Still Sceptical[/b]

Postby Johnson » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:21 am

avantitech wrote:
costumenastional wrote:
avantitech wrote:Hey Doc,

I realise this 'chiropractic view' of anatomy is the perspective from which you come, but cervical subluxations as a ‎'Likely link' to one cause for all neuro degenerative diseases?

This is a bit of a stretch in my view. Would you mind outlining the most convincing evidence for this theory or do we have to read your book to find out?

What studies if any are published in independent (non-chiropractic) peer reviewed journals and support this view?

One last question. I guess your recommended course of action to remain symptom free is for one to have your 'upper cervical spine subluxations' treated by ..... um ... 'chiropractic treatment'?


Dear TiMS members:

Dr Flanagan has certainly more important things to do with his life appart from replying to us.

If some of you do not care about what he has to say, please dont bother to come in here and play smart. Dr Flanagan is not trying to make money here. Some of you may find this difficult to squize into your thick heads and i trust that the moderators of this website will take some measures.

Let's welcome someone who has spent many many years trying to explain what may be wrong with some of us.

Last but not least, i am convinced that there are some rats in here. Be careful.


First of all I don't know how shooting the messenger is going to support any new theory no matter how many medical and anatomical words it contains.

Second, I object to this forum being used to further another agenda which appears to use the 'popularity' of CCSVI and create a new condition and acronym CCVBP which has no basis in reality, just in supposition.

The anatomically informative website has many references to 'my book' and the words 'I believe' and 'my theory'. Folks, this should start ringing some alarm bells of Pseudo Science and Trust me, I am a 'Doctor', as would claims of successfully treating a wide range of diverse neurodegenerative conditions with vertebral manipulations.

Quoting from http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com :

"...I believe that the vast majority of cases of venous drainage problems in the brain, however, are not caused by insufficient drainage capacity. In contrast to insufficiency, I believe, most cases of venous drainage problems in the brain are due to chronic craniocervical venous back pressure or CCVBP, which is acquired through trauma, aging and degenerative conditions of the cervical spine. There is plenty of physical anthropological forensic evidence to support my theory which can be seen in normal, pathological and artificially deformed skulls. Further anthropological studies should be done. I discuss the topic thoroughly in my book in the chapter called “Acute Versus Chronic Back Pressure.” There are several scenarios that can cause CCVBP..."

CCVBP? Now enter in http://scholar.google.com including the quotation marks the term "chronic craniocervical venous back pressure". Other than the author's postings...nothing. Medical encyclopedias..nothing.

Please persuade rather than preach, do develop a sense of logical balance and understand that although most of us in TiMS have enquiring minds we do also have critical thinking skills and need evidence in order to make judgments as to whether any treatment is effective.... so before people shoot off half cocked check your facts.

I do not want to get into any peeing matches (actually, I do, but I don't have the time or energy), but Doc Flanagan was invited here, and is presenting his point of view. I write all the time "in my view"," in my opinion", etc., and so do most. An hypothesis is presumed from that preamble. The propositions are always open for debate, but why trot out hyperbole such as 'Trust me. I'm a doctor'. I have read of Dr. Flanagan's hypothesis long before it appeared here on TiMS, and nowhere has he suggested to trust him because he is a doctor. If what he puts forth rings true to an individual, they can pursue it. Obviously, costumesnational has found something in it, and others too, perhaps. It rings true as part of the puzzle of "MS" for me (disclaimer: I only have para-medic training and a freaking curiosity for ideas). Maybe it does not for others. I also believe that chronic bacterial infection plays a part, and that an infinite universe means infinite possibility. Invite me to a forum, and I might discuss it (with no authority, or conviction).

If you disagree with Dr. Flanagan's hypothesis, refute it eloquently and understandably, or STFU. Are you a Doctor of Medicine? On what authority do you assault a genuine idea? Have you read Dr. Flanagan's book? (you can probably read it for free at the library, and excerpts on his website)

C'mon, it's Spring in Australia. Cheer up.
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby CureIous » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:30 am

Image

So glad that Dr. Flanagan is here, thanks for paying us a visit. I hope Costume can get some much needed help.

Thought I'd toss in a few of my own pics in no particular order, leaning in no particular direction. The one on the left is a garden variety chest x-ray taken for non-ccsvi purposes, about 1 year before Stanford. I've always had an ess curve in my spine, though I know it's not particularly eggregious on par with others.
On the right is the pic from the procedure with 3 stents showing, and the one on the bottom is in fact the location where my right IJV was "wrapping" around C1, this is post stenting at 9 month follow up. There was plenty of flow getting through, but it was "whistling" for lack of a proper medical term for whistling, causing venous hum further upstream. There was a septum down lower, it was discovered, near the collarbone area that was disrupting the flow, causing the "whistling" up stream. That pic while illustrating our nefarious little Atlas bone and what it can do to a jugular vein's routing, doesn't tell the whole story in my case, at least as far as the pic goes, but just tossing it out there as one who believes there is something here, and the chiro's that specialize in these areas, read: not your avg corner chiropracter, just may have something to bring to the table when it comes to straight up physiology of the structures our veins are going through, in and around in the first place, and how that all ties in (or doesn't).

I doubt they will be invited to partake in the discussions, unfortunately. Oh there's an open invitation for all parties to come to the table, they just lost the invitations for certain groups is all. Or ran out of stamps, not sure which.

Thanks for coming in and sharing with us, this is all so very fascinating, even from the perspective of someone who considers himself successfully treated with stents/angioplasty. Makes one wonder if there isn't an avenue to pursue prior to making costly overseas arrangements or local for that matter.

Mark.

(P.s. to others, the xray I had in my possession, and to transfer to digital, changed my widescreen monitor/tv I'm on right now, via desktop properties, to a white screen background, and dumped all my icons in a folder and hid it. This created a very nice screen to view the xray film on, then just took a digital pic of it, voila! That's the xray on the left you are seeing, though I did adjust a bit of the contrast and saturation in photoshop, worked good though!)
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby CureIous » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:33 am

I was looking for ccsvi in the medical encyclopedias, couldn't find that either. Guess we should all just pack it in and go home lol.
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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