CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby Hooch » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:02 pm

Thank you, I will get an appointment with the one NUCCA chiropractor here in Ottawa and at least see if anything can be done. I do have MS and I do get tinnitus on the left side - same side as my Bell's Palsy was and the most stenosed of my jugulars.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby icecube2 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:29 pm

Uprightdoc,


The more I read stuff about the important role our necks play in our ability to function I find it quite incredible, as I see it our neck play a vital part in every move we make.

I by no means know as much as you chiropractors, but I now have a basic understanding of how we need to flow, not just in physical stature but our internal flow is imperative to spinal fluid, blood, meridians, the urinary system, digestive system even our lungs or breathing and they all depend on our cervical spine neck, being correct.

I had acupuncture by a physiotherapist who specialized in Chinese acupuncture, that was an education too, we kind of experimented on points that caused immediate or delayed reaction.

I think I've been educated, which for me is something as not academic, but then this is a practical problem, dont need a degree to solve this one eh!

I best go to bed now as way past my bedtime! so goodnight! good day! as the case may be.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:15 am

Hi everyone hope you are as well as can be!

Dr I have been thinking on and off about the cracking noises in my spine and neck mostly. I have come to the realization that the noise is not compressed air or fluid popping it is a vacuum that is changing to neutral.
How it happens not too sure but in essence I believe the discs are either contacting and levering because of minimal disc space or some similar process.
*Any thoughts on this?
I seem to remember it always being described as air or fluid exiting that makes the sound, I believe it is the opposite.
Regards all,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:39 am

Hello Nigel,

Upright posture causes vertical compressive loads on the joints and cartilage (discs) of the spine. It is suspected that the popping noises in the spine are due to compression of gasses in the synovial fluids of the joints, which is called cavitation. In contrast to popping noises, dry degenerated joints and connective tissues make grinding and snapping sounds.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby icecube2 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:15 am

Uprightdo/Dr F


thought you may find this interesting re Parkinsinand trigeminal neuralgia, minieres I havent read it, just thought of you
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:46 pm

Thanks Dr,
I 'm not doubting 'you', and I would be interested to know if the is proof that can confirm this.
My experiences are that the vacuum created by position and flexing is that a vacuum is more likely than pressure and that the disc is/has previously been damaged and unable to heal.
The 'adjustment' of an inertia type from a Chiro IMO is purely doing the same thing and at best will (re)create disc height again as the air or fluid that enters through the disc circumference by the movement is replacing disc height that has leaked due to injury and inflammation.

I think the freeing of immobile discs is a theory rather than fact, as the muscles are holding/locking the disc to avoid or prevent more pain because of fluid loss and height loss in the damaged disc, and therefore nerve impingement, hence the automatic protection that the body employs.
So the 'frozen' disc is actually the bodies protection to allow healing of an injury or wear within the disc structure.

Regards Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:54 pm

Cavitation is just a commonly accepted theory in orthopedics that makes sense. There are different causes of snapping, popping and grinding sounds in joints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_joints

Adjustments don't restore disc height. Adjustments help restore motion. Restoring motion helps move interstitial fluids (edema) and reduce inflammation.

Fluids leak out of the center of the disc, called the nucleus pulposis, when the circumferential annular rings that surround it tear. Once it leaks out it it is gone for good. While some discs can be restored to a certain degree there are different stages of degeneration. As discs continue to degnerate they undergo crystalline changes that make them less able to attract water, which causes them to dry up and sometimes disappear causing segments to fuse. Frozen discs can be due to muscle splinting/guarding. They can also be due to tearing, displacement and swelling of the disc. Antalgic leans are generally due to flexor-withdrawl pain avoidance reflexes to prevent compression of nerve roots or the joint facets.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:13 pm

hi dr. flannagan, long time here. will be e-mailing. had a few things come up.

i know you had told me that if i got surgery i'd be one of the first diag. with ms to do so. boy they sure kept a lid on this study i found. this study was done sept. of 2000. i was still on my 2 feet, driveing etc. i've looked for more info. maybe you could find more about it or even some of the dr.'s.

anyway, here it is, i'm very interested in your thoughts.

.
Bashir K, Cai CY, Moore TA 2nd, Whitaker JN, Hadley MN.
SourceDepartment of Neurology, University of Alabama at Birmingham, and Neurology and Research Services of the Birmingham Veterans Medical Center, USA.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: The goal of this study was to investigate the clinical and paraclinical features, treatment, and outcomes of patients with multiple sclerosis (MS) and coexisting spinal cord compression secondary to either cervical spondylosis or cervical disc disease. Patients with MS commonly experience neurological disabilities that present as myelopathy associated with bladder dysfunction. For some patients with MS, however, this neurological deterioration may result from coexisting spinal cord compression attributable to either spondylosis or a herniated disc. Overlapping symptoms of the two conditions do not allow clear clinical determination of the underlying cause of worsening.

METHODS: Patients with MS who underwent cervical decompression surgery were selected. Medical records were retrospectively reviewed, to collect data on their pre- and postoperative clinical courses.

RESULTS: Nine women and five men with definite MS were selected for cervical decompression surgery to treat neurological deterioration considered to be at least partially attributable to spinal cord compression. The most common symptoms were progressive myelopathy (n = 13), neck pain (n = 11), and cervical radiculopathy (n = 10). Bladder dysfunction was notably absent among these patients with MS with moderate disabilities. Surgical intervention was frequently delayed because the neurological deterioration was initially thought to be attributable to MS. The majority of patients experienced either improvement or stabilization of their preoperative symptoms in the immediate postoperative period; three subjects (21%) maintained this improvement after a mean follow-up period of 3.8 years. No MS relapses, permanent neurological worsening, or serious complications resulting from surgery or general anesthesia were noted.

CONCLUSION: Carefully selected patients with MS and cervical spinal cord compression secondary to either spondylosis or disc disease may benefit from surgical decompression, with minimal associated morbidity. Clinical features (especially neck pain and cervical radiculopathy) and magnetic resonance imaging may assist clinicians in differentiating between the two conditions and may guide appropriate treatment without undue delay.

PMID:10981751[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Publication Types, MeSH Terms
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby whyRwehere » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 am

Thank you for printing that abstract blossom, makes sense.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:57 am

Nice to hear from you B.

The study you are referring to treated cases with cervical myelopathy, which is compression of the cord. The compression of the cord was caused by spondylosis or degenerated discs. The problem in cases such as yours is that you don't have myelopathy. My position is that spondylosis can cause MS even without myelopathy because spondylosis compresses the epidural space which contains the vertebral venous plexus. It is my opinion that compression of the epidural space affects blood and CSF flow in the brain and cord. Early intervention in cases of MS associated with significant spondylosis may alleviate or halt the progression of MS. Upright MRI is continuing to confirm my theory regarding spondylosis. I suspect scoliosis similarly causes problems as well and likewise has yet to be studied.

The links below are to my latest blog and website posts on cervical spondylosis.
http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/
http://www.upright-health.com/cervical-spondylosis.html
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:53 am

hi dr. flannagan,

myleopathy, i can remember way back my one and only neuro. i ever thought was worth his salt was trying to figure out my problem and he mentioned that "1993" but you say i don't have that. never the less, i see where you are coming from with the stenosis etc.

but, you would have thought that after seeing improvements and no harm to the patient that it should have been brought to the frontline of testing when and before putting the label of ms on people. can you imagine how many people are out there that could have been helped and should have been helped.

even though this was for myleopathy, these people still had ms. so, common sence would be to keep studying the spine more in that way.

do you think it would do me any good to get a copy of this study to the last neurosurgeon in pitt. that would not do the surgery because of ms? do you think it might get him thinking?i know myleopathy but still.

had you ever heard of this before?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:13 am

The earlier types of surgeries weren't worth the risk. Patients often got worse. Endoscopic surgery has improved outcomes significantly and has far fewer complications. Sending the surgeon you saw a copy of the study might get him thinking but most of them think that if the spondylosis doesn't directly impact the cord then it's not a problem. They don't see the connection between myelopathy and MS and they definitely don't see a connection between spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis in MS.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:38 am

Just read this from a FB site
Conclusions: The methylprednisolone administered in this study did not provide a large or significant lasting benefit with regard to neurological preservation or restoration. Methylprednisolone may reduce regional spinal cord blood flow through mechanisms affecting normal autoregulatory blood-flow function.

http://www.jbjs.org/article.aspx?Volume=85&page=95

Might be of interest Dr F?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:58 am

Thanks Nigel.

The reason for using the corticosteroids is to reduce inflammation and edema causing compression of the cord the same as brain swelling following trauma. The problem is that the corticosteroids reduce inflammation and edema by decreasing circulation, which can cause ischemia. If the ischemia becomes chronic or severe enough it can set off the glutamate cascade.

It is my opinion that, rather than using corticosteroids, traumatic brain and cord injuries should be treated with specially designed long-axis flexion distraction spinal decompression tables. Decompression tables are used to rhythmically distract (pull apart) and compress the long axis of the spine, as well as moving the segments thorugh the three planes of x, y and z motion. The movements create pressure gradients within the segments of the spine and spinal canal that move blood and CSF through the canal and cord. Fluid flow in the canal in turn affects blood and CSF flow in the brain.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:12 am

Dr. Chuck Woodfield of NUCCA research was at the Orlando, Florida ISNVD meeting hosted by the CCSVI Alliance. He sent me his presentation. He did and excellent job. He also included some of Dr. Noam Alperin's research into upright MRI and CSF flow. Hopefully it will lead to more collaborative work between the vascular doctors and qualified chiropractors to improve outcomes for all. I also got to see some of the recent upright MRI and cine flow studies done by Drs. Scott Rosa and David Harshfield in Albany, NY. Dr. Raymond Damadian, the inventor of upright MRI was also there adding his two cents. I sent two unusual patients to the study. The images and findings from the study were outstanding. Upright and cine MRI confirm my theory about the impact of spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis on blood and CSF flow in the cranial vault and spinal canal. It was fantastic to see.
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