CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:22 am

The link below is to my latest wordpress blog on CSF hydraulics and battered bones.

http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/blood-csf-and-battered-bones/

The next wordpress post in several weeks will cover the impact of CSF hydraulics on the brain.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:58 pm

Hi Dr F another great post!
I have been thinking about the articles that have recently surfaced about CSF flow (decades after your publishings) and have been wondering about statements that there a two regions of the CSF flow, a high and low flow?
If that is the case I assume that the passages and areas that are 'pumping' the faster flow are 'separate' from the slower flow that circulates the brain and cord?
It would appear that there is no particular 'place' that pumps CSF as the entire CSF flow is a balance of the forces of the Arterial pulses and the available space for expansion and contraction.

Some thing MUST move in order to enable the arterial flow to happen in this closed circuit system of varying density materials!
Blood, CSF, Grey Matter, White matter, Bone, Tissue and the list goes on about which will give or move and which will not?

It will be a game changer or proof when the Cine flows are published.

The cord flow is one area that I am interested in because of the many 'issues' that are effecting the quality of supply, most common issue I see is the bulging disc material and the cord being tethered and held against the discs which must impede the CSF from 'surrounding' the cord and also impede the flow in the Subarachnoid space of the dura mater.
What also fascinates my mind is the way that it is said that the flow in the dura mater layers and the different flow speed inside the dura mater that surrounds the cord, both are CSF and that there is also pulsing flow of veins and arteries contained inside the dura mater sac.
Allot of fluctuating fluid dynamics in a small space, and where can this hydraulic pressure exit, I guess your next posting will explain the consequence of compression of fluids!

Regards Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:23 am

Hi Nigel and thanks,

The slow and fast CSF flow compartments are not separated. The latest research shows that the fast compartments are connected to the slower compartments of the perivascular Verchow-Robbin spaces. The tunnels of the fast compartments are formed by astrocytic feet the same as the blood brain barrier. Pump pressure for the system comes from the heart and secondarily respiration. The reaction of brain tissue and fluid movement to arterial pulsations depends on their particular fluid and elastic properties. Blood and CSF are essentially non-compressible.

Problems in the lower spine similarly effect fluid mechanics in the cord. Spondylosis, scoliosis, kyphosis and stenosis, both actual and functional all effect fluid mechanics in the cord. They can also effect fluid mechanics in the brain. How could they not effect fluid mechanics?

My oldest brother is a geotechnical engineer who specializes in large complex tunnels. Poroelasticity is an important topic to geotechnical engineers so it makes it much easier for him to understand what I am talking about when I compare the brain to rocks. Otherwise, engineers can be quite dense sometimes. They get stuck in all the muck of the details. I have to always remind him it is really all quite simple. As Blossom put it, water basically flows downhill and when things get in the way it eventually finds a way to go up, over or around the obstruction. If that doesn't work it will wear out the obstructions and tunnel through. It's the power of yin. On the other hand, you can remove the obstructions to restore flow.

My next posting on wordpress will attempt to explain ventricular enlargement and brain deformation due to poroelasticity.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:07 pm

hi dr. flanagan, even though i have these questions it is not to take away from this thread. i ask you "as i feel nigel does" because you not only are the most knowledgable in this field but you also have a broadbase unique knowledge of the body and the working of it. touching on many things such as chinese med. etc. you put the words correctly where as i have said my "yeng and my yang" is outta whack concerning certain things. "hillbilly chinese translation" of the chinese vocabulary.

with the chlamydia pneumoniae - do you think since all who are exposed to it some have real problems some don't-the same with mercury fillings or even the fact that all who have some really bad spinal issues still do not develop what they call ms. but say with some who are carrying this cp but they are cranking along through life "like i was" very healthy my immune system taking care of business them boom you have a trauma or an ongoing trauma situation that causes your blood flow and csf flow to be sluggish and the correct flow which normally takes care of these invaiders all of a sudden they can get a grip and start trouble. and maybe the people who had prev. structual problems but until exposed to this started getting symptoms because the flow wasn't great to begin with. ---kinda as the slow creek getting slow or low and the slime pond scum type thing can creep in or take hold.

i recall telling the first neuro. what is ms he said they thought it was a virus-and then i told him then if a trauma didn't cause these symptoms then i don't have this thing you call ms and if a virus is involved then it was sleeping a long time and the trauma woke it up.

Quote dr. f. I have a different theory. I think that most cases of MS are due to trauma and other anatomical issues. As I have mentioned many times, however, about a third of the cases I have consulted with are migraine variants related to autoimmune-inflammatory conditions. The cause of the autoimmune-inflammatory reactions differ. I have a case now that is related to a former episode of EBV. The EBV, however, was brought on by her particular physiology, her high energy stressful lifestyle and diet loaded with sugar. The combination weakened her immune system and provoked inflammation. I have also treated cases of gluten enteropathy and lactose intolerance etc.. Colon problems, weak stomach acid and digestive enzymes are common causes. Viruses, bacteria and other pathogens don't always cause the problem. They show up because there is a problem and the system is out of balance and weak.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:55 pm

I posted this elsewhere and will put it out here as well for thoughts please.

***CPn transported by reflux that is seen in CCSVI, possible?***

It is possible that it takes the vein reflux found NOW in so many diseases to send the Bacteria such as CPn across the BBB and allow the bacteria to cause the symptoms that are common across so many diseases ,* now some IR's are calling them CCSVI Symptoms*.
Maybe they are CPn symptoms enabled by reflux from CCSVI to hydraulic the diseased cells into and across the BBB, without detection or most importantly a way to test for the Disease once in has entered the Brain and Cord!

The other way of breaching the BBB is from Trauma or injury, in my small mind the pathway has been understood the effect of the breach hasn't.
Identifying the symptoms and understanding how they are caused at a cellular level is the next horizon?

Many diseases have similar symptoms (Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Chiari, IBS, Chrons, etc, etc), and no one (Neuros) have gone looking at how they happen at cellular level and tracked what really causes them.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:29 pm

nigel, might this explain? any thoughts dr. flanagan?


Possible MS Culprit Virus Steals in Through the Nose

By Elizabeth Norton Lasley
November 01, 2011
Of all the senses, perhaps none is more evocative than the sense of smell. The merest whiff of a familiar scent can bring back the past and rouse sleeping emotions. That’s because a relay of neurons connects the nose directly to the brain. But unfortunately, viruses also travel this bridge: for example, the viruses that cause rabies, West Nile disease, and some influenzas infect the brain through the olfactory pathway. New research shows that a lesser-known virus called human herpesvirus-6 (HHV-6) may take the same route to play a role in multiple sclerosis (MS). The finding may point the way toward new treatments and may help reveal how MS and other neurological diseases develop
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:49 am

Thank you so much Blossom, you have helped heaps.

The thing that I find I keep coming back to is the way some people who have PTA have INSTANT improvements, and some have the same regions angio-ed and they have not change.

The in my mind says that the Lesions on MRI are not the cause of some symptoms!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cause of symptoms changing rapidly is the KEY to what is happening that will also help understand why these diseases are linked by symptoms and not by MRI findings!

Regards,
Nigel

Edit;
HYDRAULIC-ING the Capillary Beds because of reverse flows caused by Alignment issues or Vascular Malformations and other Vascular issues is going to transport Bacterial diseases like CPn into the brain where it creates havoc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Find the cause and the 'reason for the changeability' of the Symptoms that are involved "Priceless"!
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:34 am

Quote;
"Building upon the work of chiropractor Doctor Michael Flanagan, who has researched and written extensively on the role of CSF flow and neurodegenerative diseases (click here and here), another study, which used a specialized upright MRI device – known as a FONAR MRI – to scan MS patients, linked trauma to the upper neck and bottom of the skull to abnormal CSF flow and the eventual development of MS in study subjects (click here). This research, in turn, led to an ongoing investigation using FONAR MRI imaging in conjunction with a specialized chiropractic technique, known as Atlas Orthogonal, to demonstrate that not only is CSF flow abnormal in MS patients, but that this flow can be corrected by physically manipulating the Atlas bone, the uppermost cervical vertebra in the spinal cord. The bone gets its name because the weight of the entire head rests upon it, just as, in Greek mythology, the weight of the world rests on the shoulders of Atlas. This study is being headed up by chiropractor Doctor Scott Rosa and Doctor Raymond Damadian, the man who actually invented the MRI back in the 1970s. "

http://www.wheelchairkamikaze.com/2012/ ... 2347284129
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:41 am

"It's as if the brain has two garbage haulers - a slow one that we've known about, and a fast one that we've just met," said Nedergaard. "Given the high rate of metabolism in the brain, and its exquisite sensitivity, it's not surprising that its mechanisms to rid itself of waste are more specialized and extensive than previously realized."

While the previously discovered system works more like a trickle, percolating CSF through brain tissue, the new system is under pressure, pushing large volumes of CSF through the brain each day to carry waste away more forcefully. "


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/249072.php
=======================================================================

* My thoughts on this are that the areas of CSF surrounding Arteries in particular will pump/pulse CSF because of the limited space that is between the vein and the wall that is containing the CSF. A mini pumping system because of the small tolerances, this would speed the flow of the CSF compared with areas elsewhere that have more clearances in their purpose of that area. Eg for the cushioning effect of CSF in cisterns and other parts of the skull.
So CSF would have different speeds and 'maybe' pressures around the brain depending on the clearances in the passage ways and the pulsing of the Arteries which would be the primary source of energy for the dynamic to happen all around the Brain/Skull and then on to the Spinal cord.?

**Could the building pressure of CSF be the KEY issue? Is it possible that the pressure of CSF all around the Brain/Skull/Cord is meant to be 'equal' the flow speed can vary in regions of the system without issue as long as the pressure is constant. Increased pressure causes ? Drain system of CSF effected by ?**

Again in my mind this comes back to why do symptoms change rapidly after PTA? The change in pressure or back flow or reflux is effecting something that is dependant on a natural or normal flow. The change in symptoms is about the change in flow and or pressure on a system in the brain that can vary or adjust without a permanent status of 'damaged'. Is the change of PTA also a change in the draining of CSF?

This is likely to be again multi factorial, the lesions seen, the symptom changeability of RRMS, the progression faze, PTA symptom changes, AO adjustment flow changes, CPn bacteria treatments.

What enables the rapid change in the symptoms is what will bring us closer still!

Too tired now, had a fantastic morning over at the Beach/Coast with Sage. She swam, fetched sticks, met the locals and had a great time, as did I!

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:27 am

Have been working on getting Joe Ierano (from Sydney Australia, a trained, trainer in AO technique), involved with the testing and treatment of Atlas alignment as per the Dr's Rosa/Damadian Study.
I think I have found a snag!
What do you think? I would appreciate some honest forth right feedback as I could learn from this.
Thanks
Nigel.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... re_comment
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:55 am

blossom wrote:...with the chlamydia pneumoniae - do you think since all who are exposed to it some have real problems some don't-the same with mercury fillings or even the fact that all who have some really bad spinal issues still do not develop what they call ms. but say with some who are carrying this cp but they are cranking along through life "like i was" very healthy my immune system taking care of business them boom you have a trauma or an ongoing trauma situation that causes your blood flow and csf flow to be sluggish and the correct flow which normally takes care of these invaiders all of a sudden they can get a grip and start trouble. and maybe the people who had prev. structual problems but until exposed to this started getting symptoms because the flow wasn't great to begin with. ---kinda as the slow creek getting slow or low and the slime pond scum type thing can creep in or take hold...


Absolutely. Clinically speaking however, most MS patients I have consulted with are not what I would consider to be classic autoimmune-inflammatory type conditions. Injured tissues deprived of proper blood and CSF flow in the brain and cord can provoke neurodegenerative cascades such as the glutamate/ischemic cascade I discuss at length in my book. The ischemic cascade isn't caused by viruses, bacteria or any other type of pathogen. Instead, it is caused by the release of internal chemical agents that get out of control and ratchet-up the injuries.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:00 am

blossom wrote:...Possible MS Culprit Virus Steals in Through the Nose...By Elizabeth Norton Lasley November 01, 2011...

Of all the senses, perhaps none is more evocative than the sense of smell. The merest whiff of a familiar scent can bring back the past and rouse sleeping emotions. That’s because a relay of neurons connects the nose directly to the brain. But unfortunately, viruses also travel this bridge: for example, the viruses that cause rabies, West Nile disease, and some influenzas infect the brain through the olfactory pathway. New research shows that a lesser-known virus called human herpesvirus-6 (HHV-6) may take the same route to play a role in multiple sclerosis (MS). The finding may point the way toward new treatments and may help reveal how MS and other neurological diseases develop


See my previous comment. Viruses, bacteria and pathogens tend to cause systemic not just local problems. Ischemic cascades cause local problems. Anyone with autoimmune-inflammatory conditions due to bacteria, viruses and pathogens has systemic problems. MS on the other hand, is often associated with and causes co-morbidities.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby CureOrBust » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:00 am

NZer1 wrote:Have been working on getting Joe Ierano (from Sydney Australia, a trained, trainer in AO technique), involved with the testing and treatment of Atlas alignment as per the Dr's Rosa/Damadian Study.
I think I have found a snag!
What do you think? I would appreciate some honest forth right feedback as I could learn from this.
Thanks
Nigel.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... re_comment
I just had my second AO treatment, by Joe Ierano, about 10 hours ago. Looking at the times on facebook, it would of been not too long after Joe's first response to you of today. :lol:

He was very excited when he saw my before X-rays, as he said my Atlas had both a rotation (large 12deg) and a tilt (small around 4deg I think). After the first treatment (wed), I did not notice anything different, and after today's treatment I'm still the same. :sad: However, after the first treatment, he took another X-ray and he had rotated the Atlas about 5-7deg back into alignment.

I was surprised, as I expected at the very least to have a stiff neck from the muscles adjusting back to the new bone locations.

I too brought up Dr Rosa's study.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:16 am

Nigel,
There are two key points to consider. The first is that while the slow and fast components of CSF flow can have local effects, it doesn't effect the bulk flow of CSF through the brain or intracranial pressure. The second point is that pressure isn't the only issue. It can be low and still cause problems. Force has to be considered as well.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:35 am

NZer1 wrote:Have been working on getting Joe Ierano (from Sydney Australia, a trained, trainer in AO technique), involved with the testing and treatment of Atlas alignment as per the Dr's Rosa/Damadian Study.
I think I have found a snag!
What do you think? I would appreciate some honest forth right feedback as I could learn from this.
Thanks
Nigel.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... re_comment


No comment. It's a sad commentary as far as I am concerned. It should be pointed out that Dr. Rosa is on the board of directors for Atlas Orthogonal, as is Dr. Colavita, who has been helping Dr. Rosa. They follow strict AO protocols. While Dr. Sweat made a big contribution to specific upper cervical correction so did Dr. Ralph Gregory, as well as others. The science continues to evolve thanks to professionals like Dr. Rosa who build on the solid foundations left by others. As I say in my book, conservatism is key to science. It keeps it in check and keeps it from going over the cliff. But science is meant to be challenged in order to grow. We need the fringe scientists to push and stretch the envelop. That said, specific upper cervical chiropractors have been successfully treating neurological, including neurodegenerative diseases since its inception. Dr. Rosa is simply adding to the science and attempting to improve the methodology and patient outcomes. I think it's becoming obvious that obstruction to blood and CSF flow plays a role in neurodegenerative diseases. Now we need to figure out what we can do to prevent blood and CSF flow problems, as well as what can be done to fix them when they do occur.
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