This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

Nigel,
The symptoms associated with alignment issues are too numerous to go into here. There are the obvious alignment issues such as scoliosis and spondylosis that can cause neurological, respiratory, cardiovascular and musculoskeletal complaints. Thoracic outlet syndrome is often due to alignment issues. Alignment issues can cause compression of nerves, blood vessels or organs. I recently reviewed a case has a lumbar scoliosis with atrophy of the kidney on the side of the concavity of the curvature. There was case posted earlier on in this tread where the patient had a thoracic curvature due to trauma caused by a fall form a gym bar onto his neck and side that resulted in severe displacment of the diaphram upwards. There are also alignment issues assoicated with cartilage and connective tissue degeneration that can compress nerve roots or the cord such as a herniated or degenerated discs. Misaligned joints also bear abnormal compression loads which can irritate joint capsules and muscles that result in local inflammation. Misalignment of the TMJ is frequently associated with tinnitus. Rheumatoid arthritis can cause serious alignment issues that compress the cord. Malalignment of the upper cervical angles and base of the skull has also been shown to impact the cord and associated with Chiari malformations.

Many types of trauma cause degenerative conditions that show up years later. Blood vessels degenerate early in life and cause hypertension later in life. There is a great deal of research going on into the role of traumatic brain injuries and edema early in life due to sports that cause neurodegenerative diseases later in life such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, MS and ALS. It takes time for certain types of tissues such as cartilage and connective tissues in the spine to break down to the point where they effect nerves, blood or CSF flow. Likewise, the brain and cord can break down slowly for varioius reasons such as chronic oxidative stress.

There are definitely clinical signs of electrical and plumbing problems. You can detect them with physical and lab exams. I always checked nerves and blood vessels in TOS and carpal tunnel exams. There are many studies, too numerous to mention here, on the role of arterial, venous and CSF flow problems in neurodegenerative diseases. Hypertension and strokes for example, play a significant role in neurodegenerative diseases. Neursurgeon, Dr. Wise Young further believes that venous hypertension is one of the most overlooked causes of degenerative conditons of the cord. I believe that venous hypertension may similarly play a role in neurodegenerative diseases of the brain. The role of hydrocephalus in neurodegenerative conditions has been studied in children and adults. The latest research is on the impact pulse pressure waves and abnormal waveforms in neurodegenerative processes in adults.

Thanks again Dr.
The bottom line is that we don't have any idea do we. We can say that this or that will have an effect or a co-incidence in an outcome, bottom line we can't prove it.
We are getting closer and we seem to be able to modify situations that we have no understanding about!
We are still not able to say if Vascular or Nerve conduction or Microbial issues is the best approach or if it will have to be a combination to find improved wellness.
Too many false clues and temporary fixes!
Theory is great when it is supported by more than observation.
If a hundred people find consistent relief for the same condition I would assume that there is an understanding to be relied on to manage it, if only a hundred out of a thousand had relief I would go back to the drawing board!
Minds need to be Open much like Parachutes when falling from Planes!

a while back i had asked dr. flanagan this concerning cpn or even other sneaky bacteria or viruses ----


my question-...with the chlamydia pneumoniae - do you think since all who are exposed to it some have real problems some don't-the same with mercury fillings or even the fact that all who have some really bad spinal issues still do not develop what they call ms. but say with some who are carrying this cpn but they are cranking along through life "like i was" very healthy my immune system taking care of business them boom you have a trauma or an ongoing trauma situation that causes your blood flow and csf flow to be sluggish and the correct flow which normally takes care of these invaiders all of a sudden they can get a grip and start trouble. and maybe the people who had prev. structual problems but until exposed to this started getting symptoms because the flow wasn't great to begin with. ---kinda as the slow creek getting slow or low and the slime pond scum type thing can creep in or take hold...

dr. flanagan answered--quote

Absolutely. Clinically speaking however, most MS patients I have consulted with are not what I would consider to be classic autoimmune-inflammatory type conditions. Injured tissues deprived of proper blood and CSF flow in the brain and cord can provoke neurodegenerative cascades such as the glutamate/ischemic cascade I discuss at length in my book. The ischemic cascade isn't caused by viruses, bacteria or any other type of pathogen. Instead, it is caused by the release of internal chemical agents that get out of control and ratchet-up the injuries

my question or thought now to dr. flanagan and nigel--what i'm getting at is with better csf flow and blood flow whatever the other culprits playing a part in each individuals symptoms--if i understand this right these culprits like to take a nose dive and hide out -so the better flow whether it would have an antibiotic in it or even a natural treatment -maybe you would have a better chance of flushing them out and killing them. and the flow nourishing and helping to heal.

then of course there are those that have nerves being squeezed or damaged--so bottom line--the spine being in good shape or bad would have an impact on the end results.

My reading has me understanding that it is not the presence of the bacteria or virus that is the problem, in exactly the same way that we all have cancer cells in our bodies, it is the general wellbeing that keeps the volume or population at a safe level. If it gets out of 'control' or the environment suits them then we have an illness.
CPn as one example can stay dormant in the cells of our bodies and wait till the environment is safe for multiplication. CPn has more interest than others because it is proven to be involved in Arterial and Heart illnesses and is being tested for and found in volume in many other disorders such as Rheumatoid Arthritis.

Balance is the Key

Your welcome Nigel.

Maybe some doctors don't but I always have a pretty good idea what I an doing when I work with patients. It's based on solid history, physical examination, x-rays, MRI and lab work. A good history will provide clues about possible infectious or autoimmune-inflammatory conditions as well as a host of other systemic conditions. People with inflammatory conditions also tend to have physical signs. It easy to see conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis and rosacea. In Chron's diseases the bowel is tender and palpation can produce slosshy sounds. In kidney disease the kidneys are tender. Liver diseases cause skin and eye discoloration. People with lung diseases have abnormal lung sounds and poor color. There are many morphological signs of systemic illness.

CPn therapy may be a viable option for certain cases of autoimmune-inflammatory conditions but the method and the side effects are extreme similar to chemotherapy. It also flies in the face of our current problems dealing with super resistant strains of bacteria and pathogens due to the overuse of antibiotics. If the CPn theory is correct then many millions of additional people should be put on multiple and prolonged antibiotic therapy, which can only make matters worse. Cases should be carefully selected. Several of the successful cases I read had clear evidence in their history of acute infections and CPn is definitely worth investigating. I would also consider it as a potential treatment for fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis and rosacea cases as well, but I would't start with CPn. There are other much safer therapies to consider first. In fact, in addition to the antibiotics, CPn treatment includes a shotgun approach of many good supplements including powerful antioxidants and probiotics that may doing as much to heal the patient as the antibiotics.

Balance is the key in Traditional Chinese Medicine. The side effects of CPn would be considered poor treatment. Typically, if cold or toxic herbs are used to kill pathogens then mitigating herbs are used to offset the impact. It's generally not wise to make a person sick in order to heal them. The first rule in health care is to do no harm. Antibiotic therapy can save lives but it can also harm the body and injure healthy tissues and systems. That said, some people need strong medicine.

I read the CPn and Dr. Wheldon's site in depth. I found it interesting, fascinating and informative. I read through the case histories several times. They were all very sick people with significant history of past infections, pneumonia, tick bites, spider bites and extreme chronic autoimmune-inflammatory disorders. Some of the MS cases were probable and possible. They weren't definite cases. While It may be a solution for extreme cases with clear evidence of history of infection and autoimune-inflammatory conditions I wouldn't recommend it to most cases of MS or other conditions without trying other far safer options first. I don't think it's a major cause of Alzheimer's disease either, which was formerly attributed to a latent virus. Hypertension, ischemic atrophy and normal pressure hydrocephalus play a much more significant role in AD than bacteria or viruses.

This is clearly a shotgun approach that probably kills many pathogens, not just CPn. It most likely kills many beneficial microorganisms as well and it can effect healthy tissues and makes patients seriously ill. It is interesting that all the ill feelings, including psychois are attributed to the release of endotoxins from dead bacteria and not to adverse reactions to the antibiotics. This is an assumption. The supplements are also a shotgun approach.

The links below are to articles on the side effects and controversy surrounding overuse of antibiotics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/health/research/popular-antibiotic-may-raise-risk-of-sudden-death.html?_r=2&
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/health/scientist-examines-possible-link-between-antibiotics-and-obesity.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/health/policy/fda-restricts-use-of-antibiotics-in-livestock.html
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/popular-antibiotics-may-carry-serious-side-effects/?smid=li-share&goback=%2Egde_1886060_member_162309854

Nigel,
I enjoyed reading Stephan Buhner's website and his approach to using herbs to treat patients with lyme disease. He is much more in line with my way of thinking. He uses many classic Chinese herbs. When patients experience adverse or so called Herx reactions, he recommends they change the herbs they are using or to decrease the dosage. This is in line with TCM principles. His treatment primarily focuses on building up the patients immune system. In this regard, both astragalsus and Siberian Ginseng are important tonics in TCM. Astragalus is often used for patients with AIDS. Uncaria is used for wind conditions. Wind condtions cause things to shake and circulate (migrate/metastisize) such as tremors, spasms, toxins, infections, cancer, rhematological conditions etc. There are many other equally effective herbs in TCM used for inflammation, edema, and infections, such as from tick bites, parasites, worms, viruses and bacteria, as well as antidotes for venoms and toxins. The earliest writings in TCM deal with infections of all types.

I prefer a mix of classical and contemporay TCM approaches rather than fixed approaches. Classical methods are based on the eight principles as well as examination of Zhang-Fu (organ/systems), hara (abdomina palpation), tonuge, alarm points, associated points, pulse points (blood pressure), vital signs etc. Contemporary TCM also used herbs based on their pharmacology which is currently undergoing a great deal of research. In either case, except in the case of emergencies, such as poisoning, heart attacks and strokes for example, signs of adverse reactions to treatment are rarely considered appropriate. Weak patients are given weaker formulas and dosages.

Thanks Dr,
I received his book in the mail yesterday,
Herbal Antibiotics (2nd Edition)

Regards,
Nigel

Plants have to contend with predators and pathogens just like we do. Consequently they have developed a whole host of defense mechanisms. Some fungi, such as poison mushrooms (those with gills) produce neurotoxins that can make grazing animals sick to discourage their use. Fungi also produce chemicals that breakdown host cell walls and resistance so that they can grow on them. Fungi are a source of antibiotics. Trees have a layer between the bark and circulatory system in the pulp that contains tannins, which are antioxidants, as well as antimicrobial agents to help protect them from pathogens, fungus and insects. These parts of the plant are frequently used in TCM. Artemisia, which Buhner mentions on his website, is a class or fragrant wormwood shrubs. They were so named because they are good for killing worms and parasites. It is widely used in TCM for malaria, which has developed resistant strains due to overuse of anti-malarials. It is also used for moxibustion of acupuncture points. Papaya, bromelain, figs, almonds, black walnuts also contain enzymes that are antimicrobial. Many "fire purging," or anti-inflammatory plants are "cold" and antibiotic in nature. They are used for flus and infections. Overuse of cold herbs, however, can "break the blood" and lead to stagnation. Stagnation of chi and blood is a major cause of many maladies, including Bi-syndromes. Bi-sydromes are musculoskeletal disorders such as arthritis and rheumatological complaints in which pain and stiffness is fixed and not moving around. Pain and stiffness that migrates is associated with "wind" syndromes, as are tremors, spasms and cancers. As an aside, I planted clover for ground cover this year. Clover is a tonic that is beneficial for circulation. Bees love it and its beneficial for milk production in female deer. The clover seed was innoculated with a bacteria. The bacteria speeds up a reaction in the rhizomes that leads to the fixation of nitrogen. The nitrogen in the rhizomes is released and benefits the soil when the plant decomposes. We are just scratching at the surface of the pharmacological properties of plants.

I recently consulted with three interesting cases associated with infections from a virus, a bacteria and a parasite. Two of the cases have MS.

The first is a young college graduate course female with MS signs and symptoms. She is an intelligent high achiever who excels in hard science. She is a petitie but strong former competitive athlete with numerous falls, spondylosis, scoliosis, a head tilt and an upper cervical misalignment. She has a history of dibilitating migraine headaches. She has many systemic signs chronic ill-health and fatigue. She also has positive blood work for prior Epstein-Barr Virus exposure.

The second case is a tall, slender middle aged professional female with classic MS lesions in the brain. She also has lesions in the upper cord and equivocal lesions in the lower cervical cord. She had numerous falls due to athletics in school and a slip on ice that caused her to land hard on her head and lose consciouness. She has a long history of migraine headaches that preceded her MS diagnosis. She has spondylosis and scoliosis in her lower spine with spondylolisthesis, and left low pelvic obliquity (twist, rotation and tilt). Among other things, her blood and lab work show O-bands and positive test prior exposure to the Lyme disease bacteria. She has no current signs or symptoms of systemic illnesses or infection but her MS condition improved considerably when she was treated with ABs for potential Lyme.

The third case is relatively healthy, large, robust, intelligent, older middle aged, overweight male professional. He has deformation of the distal joints of his fingers indicative of depositional arthritis similar to gout but due to different minerals and crystals. He writes software programs and the deformation and loss of motion effects his ability to use the keyboard. Depositional arthritides are metabolic and dietary problems. Several years ago he became deathly ill due to the Bebesia parasite. He had flu-like symptoms and musculoskeletal pain, weakness, swelling and inflammation all over his body. The condition was caught early and he was hospitalized and treated with ABs. He healed quickly and his robust health returned. The current challenge he wants to address is the depositional arthritis in his distal fingers, which affects his ability to work.

I put this on another site for thoughts and feed back and I am in the midst of a thinking and searching process. I do believe that there is a link with viruses or bacteria, there has to be, we are probably 15-20% bacteria ourselves and the balance between good and bad bacteria and MOST importantly is the bacteria's ability to modify and adapt to the environment in a very short space of time. Bacteria can evolve their DNA in days, add DNA from their attackers eg antibiotics and immune system to avoid detection. Lots to know and the book by Stephen Buhner is amazing!!!!!! huge learning opportunity!!!!!!
My Quote;
I disagree with the assumptions formed in this study. There are parts that ring true with my experience on ABx in regard to the Immune System transporting CPn around the body and CNS, and also that Inflammation areas harbour the first sights for CPn to 'breed'.
The challenge is to find the 'best' method of detecting CPn infection rather than to assume that one test answers all questions about CPn involvement in MS.
Paul Thibault do you have any thoughts?
https://www.facebook.com/paul.thibault.37?fref=ts

"In conclusion, our results are in line with the results reached by the meta-analysis
of other studies in this field, and may suggest that CPn probably plays a bystander role in the pathology of MS. Past exposure to CPn is nearly equal in MS and
controls, but owing to infecting immune cells, CPn is more frequently detected in
the site of inflammation (CSF) as evidenced by PCR. This view is also supported
by studies which show that use of antibiotics active against CPn is not associated
with a decreased risk of MS and that MS patients do not benefit
from antibiotic treatment against CPn. (1,24)"
http://www.m-hikari.com/asb/asb2012/asb ... 8-2012.pdf

Reply from Paul;
Paul Thibault
This study supports the involvement of Cpn in MS although the authors prefer to side with the argument that it is a secondary invader. Progress in the management of MS will only occur when it is looked at in a new light. The common thread of all those that deny the new paradigm is that they avoid the reality of the involvement of the venous system in MS, and assume that the disease is pimarily one of auto-immunity against myelin - a concept that is obviously flawed when one considers all the known evidence.

Regards,
Nigel

A question for everyone,

**Are all Labs equal in their test quality and accuracy?

**Are the tests for the various bacteria and viruses 100% accurate? 50% accurate? Not accurate across the spectrum of possibilities and therefore very misleading and will create false belief!

Regards,
Nigel

This is a must read paper to help broaden thinking of possibilities in MS causation!
2007 paper showing infectious disease link to neurodegenerative diseases. Cpn and others......
http://www.immed.org/infectious%20disea ... havDis.pdf

Nigel,
The Herpes Virus has also been suggested as a cause of Alzheimer's disease and PD has recently been linked to the Avian Flu virus. Other scientists suspect that beta amyloid acts and spreads like a virus. Interestingly, some researchers are now experimenting with a virus to cure PD. The latest rage, however, is that Parkinson's can be caused by the Helicobacter pylori bacteria that causes stomach ulcers. Still other researchers have shown that PD may be caused by actinomycetes bacteria found in contaminated water. As I mention in my book, Parkinsonism (secondary PD) has also been associated with many toxins. It's highly unlikely however, that the increased incidence of Alzheimer's dementia and Parkinson's seen in football players and other contact sports associated with head trauma are due to viruses, bacteria or toxins. Viruses and bacteria on the other hand do attack weak tissues. Sluggish circulation weakens tissues. In TCM stagnancy of blood and phlegm (lymph) are major causes of illness.

I agree that there has to be an entrance to the BBB for the issues to be symptomatic once there is infection load and immune system reaction/inflammation and that process enables the pathogen to spread by stealth means of replicating the DNA of the immune system and also any antibiotics. Hence a get out of Jail card.
Hence supper bugs because the bacteria are able to evolve faster than the life cycle of 'us'.
So what is needed is a multi faceted systemic natural/herbal approach that will challenge the bacterial system of adaptation and instead of the mono agent antibiotic chemical approach by mainstream medicine have a shotgun effect with herbal multi systemic antibiotics that stop the adaptation technique.

I think that most of all the tests for various pathogens and the search for them is needing to be more reliable. The are way to many false outcomes and huge assumptions. With a gram negative bacteria for instance, it is living inside a host cell and is surrounded by two layers of it's own cell membrane and to add to that it has pumps inside its cell that remove foreign cells eg antibiotics very rapidly.
So having a negative test can be purely because the cells are in a mode to wait for the environment to be safe for the pathogen to multiply and infect, a holding pattern of invisibility.

Huge amount of knowledge required to support the other half of the picture of injuries and misalignments, imo.

It's what you don't know that is important!

Our Healing process of inflammation and scaring is a breeding ground for many pathogens that grow in volume over time and the symptoms appear at differing time frames depending on the body status and the bacterial load.

Stephen Hubner's book on Herbal Antibiotics is amazing, shame reading so much is inducing a blind left eye!

Regards,
Nigel