CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:27 am

TY Dr Flanagan! Looking forward to your post on your website.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:32 am

Thanks for replying again.

Dr Grant has advised against doing any other method of treatment feeling it might be too much for her to handle at the moment. But if you were able to treat her where would you start and with what method. I know you haven't seen her but I think you have a fair idea whats going on.

My thoughts were that the pelvis manipulations traveled up her spine and caused the C1 to misalign and wondered if correcting the C1 would make it travel back down again.

She had xrays done that show the spinal curve is progressing and the pain in her lower back is increasing. They also showed that her pelvis has rotated in the opposite direction to what it was pre-osteopath. Can I ask also, could only her C1 be responsible for the severe twist in her neck and jaw etc?

How could spasm alone make her head tilt right over to the extreme? Should I be seeking other treatment for her too, pelvis work, muscle work etc. I am so confused by this mess.

Dr Grant feels a lot of the twists and turns are neurological responses and I am sure that is a factor. Also is there anything she should avoid for fear of making her worse?

She is convinced this is a permanent deformation and I cant persuade her differently. If she doesn't see some improvements soon I fear the worst. I need all the advice I can get. Thanks.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:43 am

I will be reviewing some interesting cases with Drs. Rosa and Harshfield sometime later this week. One case involves a well known former NFL star quaterback with early dementia. There is a higher incidence of neurodegenerative diseases including dementia, Parkinson's and Lou Gehrig/amyotropic lateral sclerosis/ALS. Lou Gehrig was hit in the head by a fastball and knocked out but continued to play when he regained consciousness. Many players are now suing the NFL for concussion related dementia. Whiplash is a type of traumatic brain injury with short and long-term consequences. Damage to the upper cervical spine can effect blood and CSF flow in the brain and cord. Damage to the spine can likewise effect blood and CSF flow in the spinal canal.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:38 am

SteveSnow wrote:...if you were able to treat her where would you start and with what method. I know you haven't seen her but I think you have a fair idea whats going on.

My thoughts were that the pelvis manipulations traveled up her spine and caused the C1 to misalign and wondered if correcting the C1 would make it travel back down again.

She had xrays done that show the spinal curve is progressing and the pain in her lower back is increasing. They also showed that her pelvis has rotated in the opposite direction to what it was pre-osteopath. Can I ask also, could only her C1 be responsible for the severe twist in her neck and jaw etc?

How could spasm alone make her head tilt right over to the extreme? Should I be seeking other treatment for her too, pelvis work, muscle work etc. I am so confused by this mess.

Dr Grant feels a lot of the twists and turns are neurological responses and I am sure that is a factor. Also is there anything she should avoid for fear of making her worse?

She is convinced this is a permanent deformation and I cant persuade her differently. If she doesn't see some improvements soon I fear the worst. I need all the advice I can get. Thanks.


I use a wide variety of techniques to relieve, correct, restore function, rehabilitate and maintain the health of the spine. I used a full array of physiotherapy equipment, including a variety of traction tables, including long-axis flexion distraction. I use pelvic blocks to help counter-strain the pelvis. I use craniopathy to counter-strain the upper cervical spine and base of the skull as well as to move blood and CSF in the cranial vault and spinal canal. I use various manual methods of manipulating and freeing strained and stuck joints in the thoracic spine including the diaphram.

There is an association between Chiari malformations, tethered cords and scoliosis, which I will cover more on in future posts. Some researchers maintain that Chiari malformations cause scoliosis (a top down cause similar to upper cervical theory). Other reseachers maintain that scolisosis is caused by a mismatch in the growth of the cord and spine that results in occult (hidden) tethered cords (a bottom-up theory similar to full spine theories in chiiropractic). Still other orthopedic surgeons maintain that lumbar scoliosis couldn't possibly be caused by Chiari malformations. They maintain that malposition of the hips or imbalances of their muscles are the cause of pelvic obliquity (misalignment) and lumbar scoliosis. My position is that they are all correct.

Unless the doctor strapped your wife's head in place and twisted her shoulders, spine and pelvis past ninety degrees, it is impossible that the adjustment he did caused an the upper cervical misalignment. Likewise, if the pelvis appears to be rotated in the opposite direction it is a fault of the physician's exam or x-rays. Barring severe trauma, you cannot cause the lumbar curves or pelvic obliquity to switch sides. On the other hand, rough adjustments can cause strains and sprains of the spine and significant pain and muscle spasms. All chiropractors get to experience first hand in school what it feels like to have a rank amateur student work on their spine.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:50 am

Sorry, I'm back again!

Can I just ask one more question and then I will leave you in peace!

I actually saw the muscles of her neck twisting diagonally and it was an awful thing to witness. This happened after the pelvis was rotated for the last time. As her pelvis was moved, her neck and head was also. I was speechless. Her neck muscles are now running in completely the wrong place. Would this pelvic problem not show in her neck due to the close relationship they have?

Are you saying you think Nucca is the wrong approach in your opinion? Or should be accompanied by other treatments also?
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:50 am

SteveSnow wrote:...I actually saw the muscles of her neck twisting diagonally and it was an awful thing to witness. This happened after the pelvis was rotated for the last time. As her pelvis was moved, her neck and head was also. I was speechless. Her neck muscles are now running in completely the wrong place. Would this pelvic problem not show in her neck due to the close relationship they have?

Are you saying you think Nucca is the wrong approach in your opinion? Or should be accompanied by other treatments also?


Steve,
Your descriptions make no sense. You need to be more specific about the muscle or muscles you are describing. Also, what do you mean by "twisting diagnonally." What do you mean by, "Her neck muscles are now running in completely the wrong place?" I can't make heads or tails out of what you describe.

The neck and pelvis can effect one another but they aren't that closely related. You can injure or misalign one without the other. Low back strains and sprains are common and have nothing to do with the neck. The same holds true for cervical strains and sprains.

NUCCA is a terffic upper cervical approach and it sounds like your wife has significant problems in her cervical spine, including a possible cervical kyphosis from what I can glean between the lines, as well as scoliosis. Personally, I prefer a full spine approach in conjuction with physiotherapy to contend with pain, inflammation and spasms as well as to rehabilitate degenerated tissues and restore motion and elasticity to faulty segments of the entire spine.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:04 am

Exactly Dr Flanagan. It makes no sense to us either.

All I can assume is that her initial problems were descending and he has treated her the wrong way around.

Dr Grant has seen the twist in her neck muscles and said it is all relevant to the position of the atlas. They are running down one side of her neck, not centrally as they used to. Her collar bones are off centre also and she stands on a slant. Her left leg is a lot longer than it used to be.

As I say, I can only determine that if correcting the atlas in most people corrects a pelvic tilt, then can it not work the other way around too? Maybe if her teeth had not been misaligned to start with it wouldn't have happened. Who knows?

It was not only the xrays that confirmed the change in her pelvis, but subsequent practioners we have seen confirmed the change in its torque from her original notes. The osteopath was rough though and did not do things in small doses.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:05 pm

A pelvic misalignment can most certainly effect the entire spine, including the upper cervical spine but it is impossible to cause a misalignment of the upper cervical spine as a result of a side posture manipulation of the lumbar spine. It is further impossible to change leg lengths and pelvic obliquity and lumbar curves from one side to the other. Nor does the TMJ play a significant role in pelvic obliquity. The hips, legs, Q angles and feet are far more likely causes. It is more likely that someone took some bad x-rays of your wife's spine or took them lying down on a supine bucky rather than standing up. They may have put the L/R indicator tag on the wrong side as well. I will be happy to take a look at the before and after x-rays if you can email me copies of them.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:11 pm

I hear there is a big conference for Advanced AO Practitioners at the moment and I see from photos Dr Rosa is very popular!
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:01 pm

I will be speaking with Dr. Rosa later this week and hopefully get down to his next two studies coming up soon. I will see if he is filled up or has some open spots for those of you who have expressed interest in partcipating in the studies.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:11 pm

uprightdoc wrote:
dania wrote:I have had 5 AO adjustments with Dr Rosa. With the first one I got huge improvements but I could not hold the adjustment more than a few days. All the other adjustments I had improvements but not as good as the first. I just cannot hold the adjustment any longer than 5 days. I guess I have been out of alignment for too many years. After talking with others that are receiving AO adjustments their story is the same as mine.And they all say that the had the best results with the first adjustment. I just started taking Lisinopril and it is helping many of my symptoms. What I am wondering if putting a shunt in like the do for babies with hydrocephalus could that help people like me?


Hi Dania,
As you know, the condition of your spine poses a huge challenge to say the least. Your question regarding shunts is a good one and timely. I will be covering the third ventricle in the next post on my website, which will be followed by a post on endoscopic third ventriculostomy. ETVs are internal shunts rather than external shunts. I believe venoplasty, stents and shunts will be a part of the solution to improving blood and CSF flow in certain cases of neurodegenerative diseases. There are other potential therapeutic and surgical solutions as well that need to be considered and studied once we better understand the full rammifications of imparied fluid mechanics in the brain and cord.

Dr F is the Third Ventricle the target because it is shown to be one of the weak points in the endothelial layer/BBB because of the change in the cells of the endothelial layer from endothelial to endo?-something else and the bonds are weak in sections of the Third Ventricle?
There has been discussion about this from a Stratton paper I posted somewhere and can't find at the moment.
Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:30 pm

The third ventricle is used because it bypasses aqueductal stenosis and fourth ventricle problems. It also works when there is no stenosis of blockage. I suspect it does so simply by increasing the drainage capacity of the third ventricle. The fourth ventricle is effected by problems in the posterior fossa, cisterns and foramen magnum etc.. The floor of the third ventricle is thin and easy to perforate. Patients with certian conditions can have a thicker floor and poorer prognosis for ETV.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:13 am

I hear what you are saying Dr Flanagan, and I have spoken to many chiropractors who say they are unfamiliar with osteopathic pelvic techniques. How he did it was to push with force the crest of the pelvis and you could hear it crack as it moved. He did this both sides several times in a couple of visits. He said it was a standard procedure commonly performed. He said it changed the apparent leg length difference and indeed my wife felt very uneven after the procedures and her gait changed overnight. She had trouble wearing any of her shoes. So if this is correct, which her reaction would imply, he has altered the position of her sacrum and it has had a domino effect up her spine. That is all I can assume.

Her x rays were taken stood up, and whether marked L or R, the curve she has now was not there originally. She had a very minor S curve on old xrays and now a large C.

Dr Grant said the position of her atlas now would indeed cause severe misalignment of her spine as it is in a very odd position. But I suppose I want to know how the hell this could go so wrong and if her body with Dr Grants treatment can ever recover. Will moving the atlas correct the pelvis and spine back to normal? Once the neck ligaments etc are so stretched and damaged surely that is permanent? What a mess he has made of her.

Cheers again.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:53 am

I am very familiar with side posture adjustments used by chiropractors and osteopaths. I performed many myself. Side posture adjustments of the pelvis or lumbar spine can change "apparent" or functional leg length by improving joint mechanics and relieving spasms. The can't change "actual" leg length. There are basic orthopedic tests to check for functional versus actual leg length differences. You can also simply measure for relative actual leg length. Side posture adjustments can effect they way you walk by correcting structural faults and improving muscle function. They cannot effect the way your shoes fit. Side posture adjustments cannot alter the position of the sacrum. The sacrum is held tigthtly in place by the sacroilliac ligaments. You can improve the mechanical function of the sacroiliac joints with a side posture adjustment. Functional curves in the spine can be effected by the way you stand and by muscles spasms not side posture adjustments. Actual curves sucha as scoliosis are very difficult to change. You can improve paraspinal and low back muscle spasms by correcting the upper cervical spine. I doubt the ligaments are severely stretched and damaged as a result of the adjustment. I suspect that rather than excess motion due to overstretched ligaments, your wife has decreased motion in the joints of her spine due to degenerated connective tissues, spondylosis, kyphosis and scoliosis.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:16 am

So, Dr Flanagan, this is my last post for now hopefully.

To summarize do you believe it was purely spasm that has exaggerated the atlas subluxation, and the atlas subluxation is what is keeping her in spasm now?

Thanks Steve
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
SteveSnow
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