CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:22 am

Yes. The upper cervical spine can only subluxate to a slight degree more like what engineers call a microstrain. Nonetheless, chronic microstrains can cause structural failure. Maro strains of the upper cervical spine can occur in certain connective tissue disorders such as rheumatoid arthritis and Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. Macrostrains (misalignments) cause major neurological signs or death. Spasmodic torticollis (neck spasms), such as what your wife most likely has, can significanty alter posture similar to voluntarily tipping or twisting your head to the right. But acute muscle spasms can't change spinal curves. Chronic muscles spasms will lead to load shifts and degenerative changes including abnormal curves in the spine. Chiropractors, physical therapists and surgeons who work on scoliosis know how difficult it is to change curves. Doctors have tried rigid and soft braces, traction and counter weights to change curves as well as heel lifts. Surgeons use metal rods and screws to secure changes in scoliotic curves. For reasons unknown most idiopathic thoracic scoliotic curves bend to the right. However, cases associate with Chiari sometimes go to the left and show a reduction in thoracic kyphosis. NUCCA is one of the best ways to correct the upper cervical spine and restore cervical lordosis but it is difficult and they aren't always one hundred percent succesful. There are limitations such as spondylosis (degeneration) and connective tissue damage. NUCCA and other cervical methods use follow-up x-rays to check for changes.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:51 am

Thanks again for your input. It is so sad that by the sounds of it I will never get my once fit and happy wife back for the sake of something so avoidable. Why this man didnt stop his treatment when it went wrong instead insisting he could sort it is beyond me. I'm too angry for words.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:59 am

Hang in there. It is unlikely that the doctor caused permanent damage. It takes time to heal chronic musculoskeletal disorders, especially those associated with spondylosis and scoliosis as I suspect your wife most likely has. Keep me posted.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:16 pm

For those of you have expressed interest in participating in the AO upper cervical and Upright MRI and Cine CSF Flow studies by Dr. Rosa, the November studies are full but more are on the way. I will keep you posted about future studies. For those of you have already participated in the study, whether you were helped or not, you have contributed to a growing body of evidence regarding the role of the craniocervical junction in obstruction of blood and CSF flow and neurodegenerative diseases. Knowing the cause will help in finding solutions, as well as prevention.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:13 pm

thank you dr. flanagan, had you not come here to tims many would be in the dark and you certainly helped turn on the light switch for a lot of us. giving your time and knowledge means so much.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:13 am

Found it, I was talking to Frans Schelling about lesions, the comments are helpful insights as well;
https://www.facebook.com/pages/CCSVI-in ... 97?fref=ts
Breeches of the CNS barriers:
Role of Circumventricular Organs
• In certain regions of the brain the blood brain barrier is deficient
• Dyes injected intravenously can be seen defusing into tissues
around these specialized regions
• These regions are located in and around the third ventricle and the
floor of the fourth ventricle
• These regions consist of loose fenestrated vascular tissue with
endothelial cells known as ependymal cells or tanycytes that appear
different from those in the rest of the CNS
• These overlying ependymal cells are non-ciliated
• The function of these specialized areas is not fully understood
(Johnson and Gross. FASEB J. 7:678-686, 1993)
It's from A Dr Charles Stratton presentation on MS
http://beyondthebandaid.com.au/wp-conte ... ctions.pdf
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:44 am

I discussed the circumventricular organs previously on this thread and will be discussing them briefly on my next post on the third ventricle. The pineal gland (regulates daily cycles) is a circumventricular organ attached to the roof of the rear portion of the third ventricle. The posterior pituitary is another CVO attached to the hypothalamus on the floor of the third ventricle. The area postrema (vomitting) is attached to the fourth ventricle. The partial or absent BBB is for rapid absorbtion and secretion of chemicals. ETVs are perforations in the floor of the third ventricle.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:59 am

Still trying to get to the bottom of what has happened to my wife.

I know you said the sacrum cant move, but what the osteo did was to put my wife on a slant. He shortened one leg and lengthened the other quite a lot. Could this not be why her her head/atlas have done what they have?

Her pelvis is set back a lot on the left, probably about an inch and so is her leg. So as well as being slanted, she is twisted. I am wondering if rotating her pelvis would be the place to start. I remember the osteo saying that these adjustments travel up the spine so it cant just be spasm can it?

Any thoughts, I cant see the atlas adjustment alone being enough to sort this mess out as it was done via the pelvis initially.

When she is stood you can see her feet are veering left but her torso right. She has given up, but I cant.

Thanks for any further input you might have.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:37 am

A wry neck is caused by wicked spasms of the neck muscles that cause the neck to tilt and twist to one side. They are very painful when the patient attempts to move. They are a form of muscle guarding. Clinically, a wry neck is called torticollis. They are difficult to work on but I could typically straighten them out in one or two visits with a few follow-ups to speed up recovery and healing.

Tortipelvis is due to wicked muscle spasms in the lumbopelvic (low back) spine. The paraspinal muscles control the motion of the spine and link all the segments together. Pain and spasms in one section such as the cervical spine can cause pain and spasm in another section. Torticollis and tortipelvis can also occur together. Misalignments of the pelvis involve three dimensions, which are the x, y and z axes of rotation (forward and backward rotation; left and right side bending; left and right twisting).

If I were treating your wife I would analyze the three dismenions of strain and use a counter-strain to relieve and correct it. I might also use very gentle side posture or special segmental type distraction/tractions tables to unlock the frozen segmental joints cause by muscle guarding in order to inhibit the pain-spasm-pain cycles caused by irritated joint capsules and muscles. I prefer pelvic blocks to untwist a tortipelvis. I would also use electrical muscle stimulation, preferrably interferential on the sacroiliac ligaments and/or combination ultrasound on the inflammed lumbar muscles and joints. Heat, ice and DTM are options as well. There are also pharmaceutical pain pills, muscles relaxants and antispasmodics etc.., as well as equally effective herbs in TCM. If Dr. Grant can't help your wife then you should look for a good full spine chiropractor, physical therapist or orthopedist who can.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:49 am

Thank-you Blossom. Your comment is likewise appreciated.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:56 am

But a torticollis does not explain only her skull being pulled over and not her lower jaw with it does it? She has a very serious jaw misalignment now. her neck is straight but her skull tips right over. Very, very complicated. Torticollis has been ruled out by many chiropractors already. And why would it affect her tongue position. Dont know where to turn!
Sorry I wish I could explain better, but it is just so bizarre. A nightmare. But thanks so much for trying.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:48 am

A torticollis can definitely pull the skull over to one side. You can't tip your head to one side without moving your neck. The neck muscles move the head. The only real obvious type of TMJ misalignment is a frozen or dislocated jaw. I have worked on both. Arthritis and tight ligaments and muscle spasms, epecially the pterygoids, limit jaw opening. Loose ligaments cause the jaw to wag from side to side as it opens. Most cases of TMJ are associated with faulty opening and closing of the jaw not frank misalignment.

What type of exam did the doctors do to rule out torticollis? Did anyone check her cranial nerves? In addition to sticking the tongue out to check for tone, atrophy, strength, symmetry, tremors etc., I also like to check lingual (tongue) sounds such as Lalalala, clicks and rolls, as well as have the patient stick their tongue in their left and right checks to further check tonuge strength. The trapezius and sternocleidomastoid muscles should also be checked. Were any orthopedic tests performed? Did anyone check her spinal ranges of motion? Did anyone check her extremity and spinal muscles for strength, tenderness or spasms? If so which muscles are involved? If not, I suggest you see a neurologist or orthopedic surgeon and get a good exam because it is impossible to determine what ails your wife based on your discriptions, which are very subjective. You need more objective clincally relevant information. I would be happy to take a look at any written reports, x-rays or scans you have.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:59 am

I just finished my meeting with Dr. Rosa reviewing some upright and cine CSF flow MRI scan involving cases such as MS, Parkinson's and dementia. The impact of craniocervical malformations and misalignments on blood and CSF flow is undeniable. From what I have seen I am amazed that the brain can take such a pounding and that the patients don't have more problems than they do. Among other things, we reviewed a former star football quaterback who is developing dementia. The upper cervical ligaments were badly damaged and the upper cervical spine severely misaligned. There was moderate spondylosis (degeneration) in the lower cervical canal as well. Needless to say, CSF flow was effected in the cranial vault and spinal canal. The obstruction caused turbulance and inversion flows with pooling of CSF at the top of the brain near where it enters the arachnoid granulations and venous lacunae of the venous drainage system. There is much more to learn and the imaging technology keeps getting better.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:39 pm

Hi all,
Dr F if a PwMS has sensory signalling problems back to the brain and they are unable to judge where their body is, if they have motor signalling problems and they are not able to fine tune or activate their muscles and then on top of that have an Intracellular Infection by Bacteria that drains a cells energy etc, is the minds ability to maintain a 'correct' posture going to be a challenge?

If the coping mechanisms that we adopt over time get overloaded and tired are we going to be in a cascade effect, like the Titanic or Stroke persons when we can no longer cope?

Is correcting an alignment issue the tip of the Iceberg or the undersea basic structure that has to be addressed first to achieve symptom improvement?

In my example I use my eyes for much of my balance and for much of my posture awareness. I am unable to maintain a good posture for more than moments to minutes. To my mind this is a compounded effect of basic issues, the muscles don't have the strength required and the nerves aren't sending signals to and from my brain to achieve a 'subconscious activity'.

In the example that Steve is discussing I think that as you say the testing has to be done before any indication can be given to the current situation. It appears to be like my case where trying to improve a visually obvious alignment issue is not a reality with PwMS. Muscle imbalance that is variable and uncontrollable will place the body in all sorts of unnatural states without reason.

We are hearing everyday of people who's medical history when assembled and assessed creates a very different life picture to the snap shot of a half hour or one hour appointment.

To assume, makes an ass of you and me!

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:25 am

NZer1 wrote:...In the example that Steve is discussing... Muscle imbalance that is variable and uncontrollable will place the body in all sorts of unnatural states without reason...


That's not true. I have never seen a case where there was muscle imbalaces that were variable and uncontrollable or that place the body in all sorts of unnatural states without reason. There are muscle and neurological diseases as well as poisoning that cause dystonia, clonus or posturing etc. such as occurs in seizures but most patients with torticollis, tortipelvis and anatalgia have fairly characteristic postures and their posture is controllable. Antalgia means away from pain. The patient does't want to move because it hurts or because the muscle spasm prevents them from moving. There is usually a reason why they are in the positon they are in. When a disc herniates on the left and compresses a nerve root it causing pain and swelling and typically a right antalgic lean away from the injury. Many orthopedic problems such as spondylosis, scoliosis, kyphosis, arthritis, Q angle problems, hip degneration, fractures, leg length discrepancies etc., alter posture and gait. Except for raging fevers and meningitis most patients with infections don't have any such changes in posture, gait or muscle strength.
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