CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:07 am

Just found this and it seems to explain a little of what may have happened Dr Flanagan.

Have you heard of this before?

The Lovett Brother Relationship

A bio mechanical state, namely the Lovett Brother Relationship, describes the skeletal reciprocity between paired bones of the cranium, pelvis and spine. Atlas and L5 will move in an equal and opposite direction to one another in order to maintain a balanced vertical position against gravity. Similarly the ilia will reciprocate with the temporal bones and the occiput with the sacrum.

There is a whole website about these relationships, only wish I was learning under better circumstances.
Wish I knew whether she should have her pelvis rotated back or just stick with Nucca??
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:27 am

While it has some merit, the Lovett Theory in chiropractic is ancient and for the most part scientifically unsound. Spondylosis and spondylolistheis of the lower lumbar segments for example don't necessarily cause misalignments in the upper cervical spine. Likewise whiplash and ligamentous damage of the upper cervical ligaments causing joint instability and excess motion doesn't necessarily effect the alignment and motion of the lower lumbar segments.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:46 am

The link below is to a Chiropractic Meric Chart which is likewise somewhat valid but as equally outdated and unscientific as the Lovett Brother Theory regarding mechanical coupling.

http://www.patientmedia.com/posters/nervous_enlarged.htm
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:52 pm

Thanks Dr, that helps my understanding :)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:54 pm

Your welcome. There are many different types of joints in the body. Some joints move, some just move slightly and some don't move at all. The different types have different designs, motions and names. The AO joint is more like a ball and socket joint. The C1/C2 is a pivot joint. Motion in the UC spine is unique. The AO joints are mostly for nodding but they also side bend and rotate. The lumbar joints have compeletly different designs and ranges of motion. They are gliding joints basically built for flexion and extension. Their surface planes are oriented more sideways (sagittal). Their range of motion for side bending and twisting is fairly limited. The L5/S1 joint is unique because it links the motion of the spinal column to the motion of the pelvis. Most twisting takes place around the transitional segments where the different sections of the head and spine meet. The hips contribute significantly to pelvic rotation.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:04 pm

Interesting paper, may help your article Dr.

Conclusion

Ischemia in the deep venous territory is not a prerequisite for NPH. Patients with high-inflow NPH show alterations in superficial venous compliance and a reduction in the blood flow returning via the sagittal sinus. These changes together suggest that an elevation in superficial venous pressure may occur in NPH.

http://www.ajnr.org/content/29/1/198.long
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:54 am

Thanks Nigel. I read Bateman's paper a while ago. It's a terrific study. He cites Adams who I mention in my book. It was an old textbook on neurology by Adams and Victor that got me started looking into NPH. I have other papers on ischemic atrophy versus NPH. In addition to MRI studies they are also doing studies now using computational fluid dynamics (CFD) and finite element analysis (FEA) computer modeling of CSF flow due to the current limitations of MRI. My younger brother writes engineering software for computer modeling. Among other things his software (ABAQUS) is used for stents. I have some interesting papers by engineers using computer modeling. As good as they are, the problem with all of the latest studies, as in previous studies, is that they are being done with the patient supine not upright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaqus
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:35 am

Thanks for that Doctor Flanagan,

I didn't realise until this weekend just how bad the pelvic torsion is that my wife has been left with! I was looking at her from the side and her right hip really is set a lot in front of the left. I have been doing massage, which she finds extremely painful, but would like to ask if you know from my descriptions which muscles I need to focus on and how to try and break the spasms?
Her left knee and foot point severely outwards and her right foot slightly inwards. Any tips on how to twist her back somewhere neutral please and treat the right muscles. I have tried to research myself but they use all the medical terms and I cant quite follow it. I know her pelvis is the major contributor to her problems and would really love to be able to help her. Finding someone qualified to treat her is proving difficult because she is so extreme they are afraid to go near her!
Thanks in advance and for all the previous advice too.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:04 am

Steve,
Someone should have checked your wife's muscles for strenght, stretch, tenderness and tone. They should have also tested straight leg raising while she was lying on her back to check for sciatic nerve involvement or tight hamstrings etc.. Aside from a multitude of possible underlying mechanical causes, the iliopsoas and quadrautus lumborum are the two big culprits in low back spasms and tortipelvis. You can do a Google search for a demonstration of iliopsoas and quadratus lumbourm massage on YouTube.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:10 am

Thanks for that again. I've just been ringing around London Osteopaths and the general verdict is that I should not be doing any form of massage for fear of putting her in more spasm and none of them of heard of a reaction like hers. So confused, cant get anybody to see her and dont want to make the problem worse. But if I cant massage is there any other technique to use? When I do massage her it causes more pain, is that what you would expect or should I just leave alone for now. I wish we could see you!! Thanks and sorry for the many questions. Also do you think Nucca, as this has left her atlas in a very funny position, is enough on it's own for now to help her lower spine and pelvis realign with her neck and everyting in such severe spasm? Thanks.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:35 am

I used massage, hot packs, infrared, electrical muscle stimulation and combination ultrasound to relieve muscles spasms as well as acu-tens type accupuncture. I also used different herbs determined by the particular condition. Stretches are also helpful. For example, knee to chest stretches while lying on the back can be helpful. Medical doctors prescribe muscles relaxants. There are many muscle salves on the market as well. Most have balsam, wintergreen and other penetrating aromatic and antiinflammatory agents. Some have capsacian from peppers which helps to alleviate pain and spasms. Your pharmacist will help you select one. It would be much better to work with a professional such as a physical therapist or a chiropractor that does full spine and has a full complement of physiotherapy equipment. There are many highly effective methods available for treating muscle spasms while addressing the underlying causes.

So far you still have provided me with absolutely no relevant clinical information in the form of physical exam or x-ray findings so I have absolutely no idea what condition your wife's spine or what is wrong. From I have gathered so far, I suspect she had many structural issues. NUCCA is a good and safe place to start. Upper cervical adjustments can help a great deal in restoring imbalances and relieving tension in the paraspinal and quadratus lumborum muscles. Personally, I prefer a full spine and physiotherapy approach to treating strains, sprains, spasms, pain and misalignments. It helps to heal and rehabilitate irritated, inflammed and degenerated tissues.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:45 am

I wish I could give you more. The only xrays I could provide would be off Dr Grant. In the UK we are not given our xray or mri films although I have been told they cant refuse you, they do!

I have only the mri findings when she wasn't as bad which I sent you. Although in all honesty the medical system has not offered any in depth investigations as to what might be going on. They will not take it seriously, the last appointment was so humiliating for her, they laughed in her face. They will not recognize that chiropractors etc can move bones or have any sort of impact on the body, claiming its all hocus pocus.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby Rogan » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:45 am

UprightDoc,

I am reading your wonderful book "The Downside of Upright Posture" and it is teaching me a great deal about the anatomy and workings of the brain.

I haven't finished it yet, I have to read it very slowly and look back and forth at the wonderful diagrams. Could I ask you a question that confuses me?

On page 35 you write....

"After they get used, CSF and ISF become waste products that need to be removed by flowing back up through venous perivascular pathways and reentering the subarachnoid space, which drains into and mixes with venous blood in the dural sinuses"

I thought I have learned by reading this site that this is the hallmark of brain disease, the breakdown of the Blood Brain Barrier. Do I have this wrong? Does CSF co-mingle with blood in healthy brains? Maybe I am reading this wrong, also I am not a doctor or expert on any of this.

I do plan to gift your book to many doctors I know. Thank you so much in advance and for your advancement of brain knowledge.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby SteveSnow » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:52 am

BTW, Seeing as it is impossible for my wife to be assessed by you, I was wondering if you know any practitioner in the UK who is as savvy as you about muscle imbalance and tortipelvis etc. I would like someone professional to deal with the spasms if I can find one once Dr. Grant gives it the OK. Thanks in advance.
[cen]I have taken the liberty of setting up a live chat in the hope that people will come and chat with me about my wife's medical situation

http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=ThisIsMS[/cen]
SteveSnow
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:03 am

Steve,
I don't recall getting an MRI from you. If you did you should you should resend it. Chiropractors don't necessarily move bones when they adjust the spine. They restore joint mechanics. I would suggest you look in the yellow pages or shop around for a full spine chiropractor with a full line of physiotherapy equipment, including traction tables, as well as special adjustment tables. Find out where the doctor(s) went to school, how long they have been in practice and what methods they use. If you find someone send me there website if they have one so I check out their credentials an what methods they use.
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